Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Pixel Parenting, the podcast that helps families raise kids in a world full of screens using science and curiosity. Today I'm joined by Dino Ambrosi, founder of Project Reboot. Project Reboot is a program that started out of a popular UC Berkeley course, and he now helps students build healthier, more intentional relationships with their phones through school talks, workshops, and peer to peer efforts to shift campus culture. Dino graduated from UC Berkeley in 2022 with a BA in Data Science. His work now reaches qual school across the US we'll dig into what teens actually say about their phones, why school culture matters as much as rules. Let's jump right in. Thank you, Tina for being here. It is awesome to have you. You have such practical experience with middle schoolers and teenagers that I'm really looking forward listening what your experience is. So let's start with Project Reboot. Tell us a little bit, what is it and how you got to make it? What inspired you?
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Yeah, so it's a program that helps students build intentional relationships with technology. And the inspiration for it was my highly unintentional relationship with technology that I had when I was a college student because I was in that first batch of, I guess you could call it like the guinea pigs for social media. Instagram came out when I was in seventh grade, so I was really that first crop that grew up with a smartphone in their pocket, access to all these tools, and for a while my relationship with it, I would say, was pretty positive. But then I went to college and during my freshman year, it became this habitual escape from stress and anxiousness that pulled me into this downward spiral that eventually led to, I would call it blatantly just addiction to my phone. So I struggled with that for years, not really having many resources at all available to solve this problem. I remember looking up smartphone addiction in 2017 and really wasn't even stuff online about it yet. So for a while I just thought it was a problem with me personally, that I was just kind of weak and that was the root of the issue. I didn't understand what was happening behind the screen, the business model of the apps. There was so much that I didn't have an awareness about. And so I've spent the last more than five years now trying to figure out ways to improve my own relationship with technology and then in turn teach that to other students. So during my senior year at UC Berkeley, I made a whole semester length course that was all about building a better relationship with your phone and technology more broadly. I taught that three times and got really great results from the class. And that motivated me to found Project Reboot in an effort to spread that message to a broader audience. And since graduating in 2022, we've now reached over 50,000 students now in person, which is awesome. So lots more work to do, but it's been off to a good start and I really enjoy the work.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: That's awesome. What got you addicted to the phone?
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Instagram and YouTube were the main forms of it, but it wasn't so much those apps in particular. Like, in many ways, I don't think people get addicted to their phones. I think we get addicted to escaping discomfort through seeking distraction. And the phone is just the shortest path to distraction we've ever had, so it manifests in that way. But the root of the issue is that habitual escape from stress, boredom, anxiousness, loneliness. And the more that you engage in avoidant coping, the lower your tolerance for all forms of discomfort becomes. And I think part of the issue is when people view it as, oh, it is Instagram or it is YouTube. That implies that the solution is to delete Instagram or YouTube, but that doesn't solve the problem. It's just a band aid, and the problem shifts to something else. There's a million ways to distract yourself, especially online. So I think it's important to accurately diagnose it as effectively a pacifier that can be used to numb uncomfortable emotions. And the way that you pacify it can be different for different people. For me, it was Instagram and YouTube. But those apps, in and of themselves, while they are uniquely challenging, were not the root of the issue.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: How did you end up finding the solution?
[00:04:01] Speaker B: A lot of trial and error and testing. And honestly, my, my understanding of the solution continues to evolve because my relationship with it is still not perfect. It's a moving target and there's so many factors that influence how we use technology. And it's not like there is just this blanket, one size fits all. I think there's a few categories of things that combined together provide kind of this armor against the distracting technology that we're living with. But that armor can be penetrated and then you have to figure out how to patch it. And I wish there was a satisfying like, oh, just do this one thing. But that's not the reality of the situation. I was very fortunate to have that 12 week course at UC Berkeley as an opportunity to throw a lot of things at the wall and see what resonates with people and what sticks. And then, you know, Now I've visited 70 plus schools and gone all over and have tested a lot of different messaging to see what students respond to. So it's just kind of been this continuously evolving iterating process of trial and error and learning and iteration.
[00:05:01] Speaker A: You mentioned that you feel you were addicted. How do kids, in your experience, how do kids feel now about their phones?
[00:05:08] Speaker B: I have good data on this because one of the things that I do in my assemblies is I do an anonymous poll where students scan a QR code and they respond to questions, and then we see the results go up on the screen.
So the classic question that I've always asked is, on a scale of one to five, how happy are you with your relationship with technology?
Five being like, love it, perfect. Wouldn't change a thing. One being really don't like it, desperately want to see it change. And the results vary from school to school. But typically there are more students that are a 1 or a 2 out of 5 than a 4 or a 5 out of 5. So it's more common to actively dislike your relationship with technology than to actively like it. But recently, what I've started to ask that I think has had results that are even more compelling, is I've just started asking, do you feel addicted to your phone or to any other form of distracting technology? And I've done this now at six different schools, and the responses have always been between 64% and 73%. Usually it's around 70. And those are high schools. Right. And a lot of these are, like, great schools. Like, we're talking some of the top private schools in the Bay Area that are hard to get into with highly ambitious kids that go on to great universities. If anyone could have a good relationship with technology, it would be this kid. These kids. When you look at the screen time data, it's inversely related to socioeconomic status for kids. Typically, it's the kids from, you know, poorer backgrounds that spend more time because there's fewer alternatives. There's less structure, there's more latent stress and anxiousness that can be numbed by the device. But even the kids at top schools, 70% say they're addicted.
[00:06:47] Speaker A: Okay, and how do you think school culture is involved into that?
[00:06:50] Speaker B: It is massive. It is the biggest thing that is being overlooked when we address the set of solutions that can be implemented. I think it's the most important factor in how kids use technology, because when you are in high school, so much of your value system is oriented around social approval and belonging. Like that is just very much how the teenage brain is wired.
And unfortunately, for a Lot of kids right now, they are forced with this very difficult decision of I can either be chronically online or I can be socially isolated because that's the norm. And the expectation and Snapchat for many kids has become so deeply ingrained and embedded. It is the fabric of their social lives. And to opt out of that is for many of them realistically not an option. And that's something that no one can change individually.
The culture needs to change and there's potential for that to change because so many kids don't like their relationships with technology.
But we need to work with them for that to happen. We need to give them a seat at the table and platform the perspectives and the voices of influential students to drive that cultural shift. It actually has to come from them. This is the whole thesis of how the project program is set up really is giving them tools to change habits individually, but increasingly so focus on working with students to change culture collectively because I really view that as the only sustainable path out.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: Interesting. So when we're talking about school culture, you're talking about students school culture, but there's also policy school culture. What would you recommend? Or I mean, I know every community is different and every school is different, but your best recommendation for a school policy wise or like, you know, there's these no phone policies going on. What's your recommendation?
[00:08:42] Speaker B: I'm trying to wait to give like a very firm this is the right approach until we see more data. So I'll qualify this with. This is my speculation right now. As someone who has seen a lot of different schools and had a lot of different conversations. But I'm very open to this opinion being changed in light of convincing data and information that alternatives are better. I think that K through 8 should be totally phone free. I don't think kids should even be on smartphones until they're in high school. So I think to me that's a no brainer. I don't think that a middle school brain is capable of self regulating around this. I think their social development is so important in that age. They should not have an escape from social awkwardness sitting in their pocket all the time. You have to go through those reps of feeling awkward and weird interacting with other people. I think it's such an important thing for them that there shouldn't be a instantaneous escape sitting in their pocket at break time, obviously in class time, but at break time as well in high school. Here's where things get more nuanced. There's two factors at play. For one, doing A bell to bell phone ban. While I totally see the argument for it and there will be benefits in the short term, you will be able to measure genuine improvements on campus by implementing a bell to bell school like phone band. Kids talk more, they'll be more social during break times. There will probably be less distraction in the classroom, although I am not totally convinced of that because when I was in high school I had a phone in my pocket and a laptop in my backpack and the laptop was the far greater source of distraction in class because you can look productive on a laptop, you can never look productive on a phone. I think that really is the root of that issue. The unintended consequences that it has and the things that make me question whether or not it is the right move for high schools is one from the school culture perspective. If you take this approach of you can't handle it, we're taking it, it's all bad for you. This isn't even a conversation, it's going away.
The way that teenagers work, being anti authority and countercultural, often what results is now there is a. It's almost like you get a social credit for seeking digital distraction. I've heard from people at schools that have implemented yonder pouches where there are kids that have started underground magnet black markets where they sell magnets that unlock the pouches in the bathroom, right? Like, wow, the impact that has to culture, right. What do the kids consider to be cool and socially credited? In many cases it's going against an authoritative figure that they don't feel aligned with. So that's one externality of it. The other one is that I think so much of the problematic screen time happens at home. And there have been some studies, although they are contested and screen time is a very difficult thing to measure accurately. The Lancet came out with a study that showed schools that implement bell to bell phone bands in high school. There's no difference in total screen time for kids. It just goes to more time outside of school. I've talked to a lot of kids that stay up until 3 in the morning scrolling through TikTok. If we're worried about them not being able to learn in class because of technology, we should make sure that we're doing work to address them sleeping for eight hours a night. There's group chats that are going until 2 in the morning or they're constantly scrolling. They're not showing up in a physiological state to learn. So actually addressing the screen time outside of school I think is just as important, if not maybe more important than the time in school. But perhaps the biggest thing to me is just if the objective of high school is to prepare students for life after high school, we have to be sober and recognize the fact that they're going to live life with a phone in their pocket. This stuff is not going anywhere. Right. And for so many students that I've talked to that are in college, it's the transition into college that catalyzes this downward spiral into tech addiction. And so we kind of lose the opportunity to give them an on ramp into living life with a phone on them where we can have conversations about the norms and expectations. You can try to create a culture that allows them to use it in a positive way without being overly drawn into the negatives. Maybe that's too idealistic, but I think it's something that is worth trying because once you ban them, it's pretty hard to go back. So I think looping students into the conversation, pulling together a committee at your school where there are, there's student leadership representing student voice in the conversation, and then you compliment any sort of restriction with messaging that gets across the why, talks about the time outside of school as well and recognizes the nuance of the situation so that kids are at least bought into the policy that is in place. I think my strongest conviction is just like restriction alone is never going to solve this problem fully. It has to be complemented by empowerment. And that's educating, it's giving resources, it's driving cultural shift by engaging the students in the conversation. So no matter what the restriction is, if you go fully phone free or if you keep them around, to me the, the empowerment piece is a non negotiable. It's less simple though. That's the hard part.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: Yeah. How do you manage when there's, you know, these two groups of students, the ones that don't want phones and the ones that want phones. How do students that feel addicted to their phones, that want to minimize the use, convince the other students to do the same? Does that happen at all?
[00:14:03] Speaker B: When I was in college and a lot of the college students at Berkeley, where I'm actually at right now, I'm working with some of them today. It's embarrassing to be scrolling through TikTok when you're around other people. Like that is a violation of a social norm in their friend group and that's possible. That can happen at the high school level. But I think the conversation, the more effective way to have it is not harping on the negatives of the technology and basically having this, hey, get off Your phone kind of mindset. It's more espousing the virtues of the things that technology has been replacing. Connection, reflection, play, active leisure. These things that genuinely add value to our lives if we have better alternatives readily available.
That's the easiest way to drive culture change. And so oftentimes the best way to do it is it's almost through this more indirect path. And if it becomes cool to be able to have a good conversation or to play a game with friends at lunch, then it kind of starts to happen more naturally as opposed to running directly into it. But I think regardless, like, in order for the conversations to go well, there needs to be an environment where students don't really feel judged for struggling with it. Because I think important context to have is there are so many kids that again, the majority of them self identify and self report as being addicted. And of the people who don't identify as being addicted, many of them are legitimately not addicted. Right. Like that is a possibility is for kids to have a healthy relationship with it. Some of them do. Right. So I think the vast majority of kids who are addicted to technology recognize that they're addicted to technology. And then often you'll see parents say, well, they just don't want to change. And I think there needs to be a little bit more nuance in that perspective. It's more common for the limiting factor to be their belief in their ability to change. I can say this from experience there. There were a lot of times that I made a promise to myself that I was going to get my screen time down and do something else. Then I didn't do it. And so every time that happens, your self efficacy, the belief that you have the ability to control your behavior, withers away. And then a lot of this like denial or combativeness, I think is downstream of self criticism, shame and a lack of self belief. And so I think that's super important context to have in mind as we start to approach the conversations is coming at it from an approach of empathy and not making them feel shame for struggling to use technology in the way that they want to.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: Interesting. So let's talk about parent perceptions. Right. So parents often assume that the kids want to be on their phones 24 7. So what I hear that that's a perception. And you've mentioned that many teens want to change but feel stuck. So what keeps them from not being sucked? What are the challenges?
[00:16:59] Speaker B: It's a combination of things. I mean, so much of the use of technology literally is mindless.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: If you want to Prove this to yourself. Here's an interesting experiment. You can run either delete or move the social media apps on your phone for a day and count how many times your thumb automatically navigates to where Instagram was. So many of the times we turn to it, we literally don't know we're doing it. It's like we have this perception that our behavior is entirely controlled by the conscious part of our mind. That self identifies as being addicted or wanting to change. That's not how the brain works. Like, so much of what we do on a daily basis is automatic and habitual. And so it literally is just this deeply ingrained automatic response that takes time to go through that cognitive retraining and change the behavior. It's not like awareness is not the answer.
Right. Just having that conscious awareness is never going to be enough. I think that's the biggest thing is the deeply ingrained conditioned response to uncomfortable emotions or a habitual response to a trigger in your environment or a context that you're in in a daily basis. You just have to have again, the sober, realistic expectation that that's gonna take time to change. It's not an easy thing to do. And so that's a huge part of why. Yeah.
[00:18:14] Speaker A: Yes. And so how can parents help take control back? Because what I hear is that there we humans, I mean, we're talking about teens, but as adults, we also have these habits and, you know, these addiction issues.
But as adults, as parents of teens, what can we tell them to help them control that finger triggering?
[00:18:34] Speaker B: Good question. Okay, so there's a few things here. I mean, I'll frame this conversation with my, like, number one piece of advice to parents when they go to approach screen time is you want to make sure you don't end up in this mindset of this is a me versus you thing. A lot of times that is the nature of the conversation. It's I need you to control, to change your behavior. I'm going to try to control that. I'm imposing a limit or a restriction on you and I'm expecting you to follow it. And I think typically that results in unsurprisingly butting heads. And from the kids perspective, it's all right. It's you are my enemy and my phone is my friend. And that's not an effective foundation to start this conversation from. A much better foundation is this is us versus addictive technology. I care for you. I want what is best for you. I recognize that I don't have full context into how or why you want to Use this technology. This is the biggest generation gap we've ever had. I. I didn't grow up with this stuff. I'm not going to tell you how you need to use it, but I want to work with you to build a relationship with this that you are happy with. That is basically something that no one can object to. It's like, oh, they want me to be happy? No.
People get mad when you tell them what you. What behavior must be changed or what the time limit must be. So don't be a judge that imposes rules without their consent. Be a guide that helps them figure out their own intentions and then holds them accountable to that ideal. I think that's a super important backdrop to the conversation. The good news is the vast majority of teenagers, when you ask them the right set of questions, have very realistic, like, reasonable intentions for using this stuff. One exercise I recommend is figure out how much free time they actually have. Look at their calendar, block off all the time they're in school time they should be asleep, time for sports and extracurriculars. Figure out on a weekly basis how much free time they have, and then have a conversation of how should this free time be spent? What do you want to do with it? Right. And come up with goals for. When I ask students what deserves the largest chunk of your free time, nobody says TikTok. Literally no one, right? They'll say, oh, I want to be doing, you know, hobbies or being outside or hanging out with friends or there's a million different things. So if you focus on filling that up and then identify like, okay, this is now the goal that you have come up with for your own screen time. And I want to help you make that a reality. And I want to help you with that. Not because I think you're incapable of it or because you are weak, but because this technology doesn't have your best interest at heart. And they're working with some of the smartest people on the planet to deliberately try to prevent you from using it in the way that you want to use it. And I know that from experience, because I'll be honest, I. My relationship with it isn't perfect either. And I could actually use your help holding me accountable. So let's work on this together, right? Use that as like, the framing and the context for the conversation. And then when it comes to what can you actually do to unwire that, that habitual response, there's a few things. It's really helpful to use an app like ClearSpace or Screenzen. And what these apps Do. It's very simple. They force you to take a pause before you get onto a distracting app. So you tell Clearspace the apps I'm struggling with, it's Instagram, it's Facebook, it's TikTok, whatever. Every time you go to open one of those apps, it redirects you to the Clearspace app. They have you do a breathe in, breathe out, and then they ask you for this session on Instagram how much time you want to spend. And you can say, okay, I'm going to go on for 10 minutes. After those 10 minutes are up, it kicks you off the app. You have to go through another delay to start another session. You can give yourself a budget for how many sessions a day you want on Instagram. If you decide you want to go over that. For me, I have four sessions a day, 10 minutes max. If I decide I want to do a fifth session, it will let me. But there's a consequence, and that is that it texts my friend and tells them that I broke my streak on the Clearspace app and all of my close friends can see my screen time from the prior day every morning. So there's the social accountability to it that's immensely helpful. And that pause gives you the space to recognize the unconscious thought pattern and behavior and and start to retrain it. Clearspace is free for students all the way through the end of college. It is a tool that they have access to. Unfortunately right now only really available and free on iPhone. It's coming to Android soon. Screenzen is also free. It just runs off of a tipping model. I would say Clearspace is better on iPhone than Screenzen is. Screenzen is pretty good on Android, so that's an option as well. So you can set up one of those two apps for your kids for free and I think that's a great place to start. And then the other thing are just like protect the vulnerable times and periods, the last 30 minutes of the day, the first 30 minutes of the day. Charge the phones outside of the room. Do that as a family. Make that an expectation and a norm. Protect time for social connection. Don't have phones at the dinner table. Talk to each other, sub in more intentional longer form content consumption. Start a TV series as a family that you watch together during the time that maybe you or your kids would independently be scrolling through a newsfeed and positively reinforce better behaviors. The alternatives, the things that Screen Time has been replacing, I love it are.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Those apps Ocular Space and Zen.
Screen Zen cool. Like do kids adopt them happily or is There the Clear Space kids and the Non Clear Space kids.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: So I recommend these apps during school assemblies and typically there actually is a pretty high adoption rate. So for instance, we just got data on this from a school in Florida. We had 40% of the school activate on ClearSpace. So not every kid sticks with it. It's not for everyone. I think it's a really useful tool and I've talked to a lot of kids where I've, I've gone back to their school a year after doing the assembly and them and all their friends are still on it. So it's not a silver bullet. Everyone's going to adopt it. But there's definitely a solid chunk of kids that do think it's a really helpful tool and continue to use it and enjoy the social accountability.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: So for parents listening today, what is one small realistic change that they can try this week?
[00:24:52] Speaker B: Move the phone charger. If it's not.
That's like the simplest, easiest one. Another one super simple. I mean it's a classically recommended thing, but it's been recommended a lot because it is helpful and important. Audit your notifications. Your phone should ever only ever notify you if it's actually something that kind of urgently demands your attention or could urgently demand your attention. I have text message notifications on, I have phone calls on Gmail has a setting where you can filter down to high priority emails only. You can put all your other apps notifications either turn them off or put them into a scheduled summary that you get in a batch once or twice a day. There's no reason that as you are living your life in the middle of your day, your phone should interrupt you to tell you that your aunt posted a photo on Facebook or that there's a new news story like, what are you, Batman? Like that's not an urgent thing for you to be notified. Like unless you're a vigilante hero, you don't need real time New York Times or Apple news notifications. And I love it all day long. It's like constantly interrupting their day. And then the other one is grayscale can be really helpful as well. There's a shortcut you can set up to turn it off and on really quickly. And what people put on grayscale immediately, their screen time goes down by an hour a day. Because your phone is so much less appealing, it's hard to stay active on because it is like it really degrades the experience of using your phone. But if you're like, I need to fix this.
What do I Do. It's a great way to start.
[00:26:16] Speaker A: How do you do that? It's like a setting on the iPhone.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: Yeah, you just go into settings, accessibility, color filters, grayscale.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: Okay, I didn't know about that. So, yeah, they're all engaging. Colors are away. Nice. That's a good one.
So we're close to the end of the conversation. What gives you hope when you see how students are reflecting on their tech use and, you know, leading these conversations?
[00:26:38] Speaker B: The thing that gives me hope is that they want to see a change. They do want to see a change. There is so much latent potential for driving a cultural shift here. If we work with the kids, we can make a change. We have Project Reboot clubs that are starting at schools all over the Bay Area and even all over the country at this point. There's 40 Berkeley students that meet up every week and engage in connection, reflection, and play deliberately to separate themselves from their phones. There's so many more conversations happening about it. The recognition of the problem is massive. We just have to channel the energy in the right direction. And we need to avoid the mistake of working against the kids instead of working with them. Because I really think if we team up in our households, in our communities, in our schools, and adopt this us versus addictive technology mindset, we can make big progress. But we need to avoid the me versus you.
[00:27:28] Speaker A: I agree. And where can educators and parents find Project Reboot? And where can we find you?
[00:27:35] Speaker B: Basically, it's the website is ProjectReboot School.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: Okay, thank you. This was awesome and lots of great tips. I'll add a bunch of them to the show notes too, so parents can read through them. Thank you so much.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: Thanks so much, Patricia. Really, really fun.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: Joining Tao is Dino Ambrosi, founder of Project Reboot, reminding us that the real goal isn't to fight against our kids tech use, but to work with them to build healthier digital habits. If you would like to learn more, you can visit ProjectReboot School or watch Dino's TEDx talk on attention and screen time. I'll include both links in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow pixoparenting on your favorite podcast platform and share it with another parent or educator who might be interested. I'm Patricia and this is pixoparenting, where science meets everyday parenting in the digital age. Until next time.
