[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Pixel Parenting, the podcast where we explore how to raise kids in a world full of screens using science and curiosity. Today, we're diving into video games not just as entertainment, but as powerful tools for learning, growth and connection. If you ever wondered why your kid plays what they're learning, and how to tell the difference between healthy and unhealthy gaming, this conversation is for you. I'm thrilled to welcome Dr. Kelly Dunlap, a licensed clinical psychologist, game designer, and and executive director of Take This, a nonprofit promoting mental health in the game industry. Kelly's unique background bridges science, storytelling and play. She holds a doctorate in clinical psychology and a master's in game design. And her work has been featured at gdc, pax, and the American Psychological association for its groundbreaking integration of therapeutic principles into game design and play. Together, we'll unpack what games can teach, why kids play, and how parents can spot and support healthy gaming habits.
Thank you so much, Kelly, for being here. This is a one time opportunity for me because I'm a big fan of video games and mental health and I read a lot of research and I've read your research a lot. And you being a psychologist in the intersection with game design, that's so unique and so niche. So can you tell us how, how did you got there? Like, what made you go into the field?
[00:01:25] Speaker B: I come from a family of gamers. Anytime my family gets together, the cards come out. We play all sorts of card games, like, you know, whether it's blackjack or like card games that are just kind of within our family, board games. And so that's just always been a big part of my life growing up. And then when I started going to college, I met a group of people who really enjoyed the game Halo. Halo 2 was just about to come out. Halo 1 had already been out. And it's kind of what brought our floor together. You know, we would have LAN parties. We'd pile into each other's rooms and play split screen on this tiny little tv. I don't know how we did it. And so there's a lot of love and companionship and friendship and good memories associated with gaming.
In undergrad, I was studying psychology and I had to do undergraduate research. And at the time that I was coming through, this is 2004, the only research around video games was around the connection between violent video games and violent behavior.
And as someone who had been playing games my entire life, you know, I had a Sega Master System and a Genesis and like a PS2, like I'm playing My entire life and my experience on my floor is like, this can't be it. Like, I've been playing these kinds of games and they, they've only brought me closer, They've only made me feel more connected. So I started doing research, little baby, you know, little baby research there. And then when I went into my graduate program, it's not like there was a games and mental health program. There still really isn't, although there's a lot more options now. And so I just kind of brought gaming into everything that I did in my doctoral program.
So if I had to analyze Freud's work, I tried to do it through the lens of a video game. And if I was talking about like family relationships, let's talk about how families show up in games. So I was just trying to find ways to bring it in. And then when I was on my practicums, my training sites, I worked with a lot of kids and a lot of teens, and guess what? They all played games. And they all loved games. And gaming was such a big part of developing rapport and understanding their world and their language and what mattered to them. And so I did my dissertation research on that as well. And then when I graduated, I was like, yes, I have done the thing. I have my doctorate, I'm ready to go on postdoc. And I couldn't find anybody to take me. Nobody wanted to work around video games. Everybody was very afraid to touch that. So I actually ended up four months after graduating from my five year doctoral program, I entered a two year master's program for game design. And I kind of did the reverse. I brought psychology into I was doing in games. So if you're making a game sketch, like we had to, we had to redesign a classic board game to have like a different rhetoric to it. And so I redesigned Jenga to have like little stressors on the tiles. And then the stressors added up and there were cars.
There was a lot going on. But basically I was like, okay, so this Jenga becomes a visual representation of the stress in our lives. And like, the more stress we have, the more our foundation gets pulled, the more unstable things become and eventually we topple over. And so I just kind of like kept mixing the two together because it just, it felt like such a perfect intersection. And then, yeah, I graduated from that. And I kind of like, like, what do you do when you're done with school? When you went to 23rd grade?
What comes next? And so it's just been kind of a process of. I went back, I got My license, I started practicing in my own right. I got matched up with some nonprofits that were doing games and mental health work. And I've just kind of been, you know, moving forward from there.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Fascinating. Like, that's such a non typical path, right?
[00:04:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it's very, very scribble, like scribble lines. It's how to get from A to B. It's just kind of all over the place and seeing where, where the path takes you.
[00:05:06] Speaker A: But yeah, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, now you're an expert on the topic and it is fascinating. So why do we play? Right. What? Based on the research you've done, like why? It's fun.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: But I'm sure there's more to it. Right? So what is it?
[00:05:22] Speaker B: So first, I want to not. I don't think you can ever overvalue the importance of fun. Like fun is, is baked into our DNA. Being able to be playful and irreverent and frivolous and silly is deeply tied into our ability to be resilient and to our ability to like get through hard times through play. I always like to take it back, you know, 10,000 years ago, you know, when we were transitioning from a more nomadic species to a agrarian species, one of the very first things we did was make giant stone tablets of games.
So there's a large stone that has divots carved out that's just like mencala. So like as soon as we stopped moving, we built games to play in place. And obviously in nomadic times, there were still games. There were like knuckle bones and things like that, that people we've always played. Like, if you think about naming the stars in our constellations, that's inherently playful. We're taking stars in the sky and we're making stories around them and we're crafting tales and mor. And we're just playing with the universe literally. And so it's baked into who we are. And it's so important to our health and well being. It's also a way to learn. There's a really wonderful quote around how play is the language of children and that's how they learn about their place in the world, what they can do, what they can't do, how to get better. They learn social norms.
Play is so essential to who we are as a species.
And I think games are one of the things that really differentiates us because most species play, like dogs and cats play, obviously.
But we have taken play and like elevated to this form of games where we've put in rules and structures and We've put in unnecessary obstacles that make the play more challenging and therefore we can push ourselves further and try new things and experiment in a way that is, that is safe. Like the consequences for failing in a game are so minimal compared to say the consequences of failing at like your job or in school.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: I hear that it's a way to explore with a safety net, like with no risk and to explore. I'm thinking about parents listening to you watching their kids play and they're wondering and I'm talking about non player parents. Right. So parents that are players, they understand, but those who don't understand, what is it that my kid is getting out of this game? What are they doing? What is happening in their brains?
[00:07:44] Speaker B: Yeah. So obviously it depends on the age of the kid and the activity that they're engaging in. But literally right before I hopped on this call, my littlest is home today, sick. So he wanted to play dinosaur scavenger hunt. So I have like a scavenger hunt sheet and I have paper dinosaurs that have cut out. And I go through the house and I tape them to walls and the floor and the ceiling and stuff. And we walk around with our clipboard and we find all the dinosaurs. And so just even in that moment, like he's being observant, he's being persistent, he's, you know, actively looking for something. He's able to regulate his attention. This kid loves dinosaurs. And like he knows the difference between a Kentrosaurus and a Stegosaurus.
And last night on Jeopardy, there was the picture of a dinosaur. And I'm like, that's an archaeopteryx. And it was. And so like I'm learning too. Like I didn't know the difference between a Brachiosaurus and a Diplodocus. And I do now. Cause it's very important to my child.
And so he's learning about these really important life skills, you know, persistence and observation and looking and like working and working, asking for help when he needs it. These really important skills that I'm getting a better dinosaur vocabulary along the way.
And of course, if they're playing digital games, if they're playing with friends, they're learning social skills, they're learning norms, they're learning how to, you know, say nice words and what to do if they feel unsafe. They're, they're navigating these social spaces that they're going to have to navigate as they get older. And you know, my oldest plays Minecraft, so there's visual spatial rotation and you know, the ability to take a 3D object in your brain and like, swap it around and figure out where it goes and planning, organization. Like to build a house, you have to have some kind of plan for it. And learning the way that systems work. Well, if I make a bed, then this happens. And if that happens, then this happens. And if that happens, then this happens. Like they're learning causality and back and forth. And I mean, even in like a shooter game. So Fortnite, for example, they often get dismissed as being, well, you can't learn anything from that. Games teach us. Whether or not it's what you want your kid to learn is a different story. But all games teach. And so when I know when I'm playing Fortnite, I'm in it because I like to hang out with my friends. I like the coordination. I like the teamwork aspect. I like the strategy and the thinking and the complex problem solving that comes from those kinds of games where you have to make those really fast decisions in the moment to move towards victory.
[00:10:04] Speaker A: So all games teach, right? Whether I love that perspective. So for parents listening, could you give examples of games and like, what you just did about, like, more examples of what games can teach? What? Like, for instance, I'm thinking about role playing games, strategy games.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So, you know, I've talked mostly about, like, you know, digital games. Tabletop games are great. Like D and D style or tabletop role playing games can be really great for kids because they get to explore identity, they get to problem solve. There's obviously a very strong social component to it. We had a really interesting thing happen where we were doing like a D and D type game with my son. Like, it wasn't D and D. It was a much simpler system.
And he was creating his character. And we're like, okay, well, your character has to have a flaw. They have to have something that they're not good at so that they have something to work towards. And he couldn't. He's like, but I don't. I don't want to have a flaw. I don't want to have a weakness. Why can't I just have, like, top scores across the board? And so it was actually really tough. We actually couldn't end up playing. Cause he wouldn't complete the character sheet as it was. And so we really had to stop and talk about how, you know, some of the most interesting things happen when we struggle. Some of the most interesting things happen when we roll that NAT one and we fail epically. Like, sometimes funny things happen. The most creative things can happen. And so that was a really hard thing for him to learn and we still struggle with it. So just that idea of, like, not everything has to be perf. Perfect. There are things that we can work towards and, you know, if you, if you fail, like, you roll that one and you fail, it's okay, because something's going to happen and then we're going to cope with it, we're going to figure it out, we're going to recover, we're going to like, navigate around it. So that's great. Board games in general. Again, my little. He's only 4, but he has started playing like Chutes and Ladders and Treble and there's a little math game that he really enjoys. And so it can be as, as straightforward as, like, here's a math game I'm sure most of us remember Number crunchers. We played that a lot in school on the computers of you had to eat the numbers based on your multiplication tables. Or it's just a playful approach to learning. And then so, like, it's very clear what the learning is there. But then when you get to more abstract things like, say, Minecraft or Fortnite or even like Dungeons and Dragons, it's really important to ask your kid what they're getting out of it because I can tell you all day that, hey, Fortnite is great for communication, collaboration and strategy. And it is. But everybody plays a game for a different reason. And so someone who plays Fortnite might like the graphics, they might like the art style, they might like the skins and the different ways that you can, like, present yourself. It can be full of identity exploration because you can literally try on, like, different bodies and different outfits and different hairs and different styles. Some people may play it with their friends, some people may want to play solo, some people play in creative because they want to, or in build mode because they want that added part of building, because they find that enjoyable. So I guess that's what I would. That's what I usually tell parents is I can tell you about the games and what's kind of inherently in there. But in terms of what your kid is taking away from that game, you really have to ask them what if.
[00:13:07] Speaker A: You ask and they're not aware of what they're getting from the game.
[00:13:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's, that's really challenging based on the age of the kiddo, you know, if I, if I ask. So my 9 year old, my poor kid, he gets, he gets a lot of spotlights in my talks because, you know, when he was younger I asked him like, hey kiddo, why, why do you play games? Oh, because they're fun. And to be fair, that's the answer pretty much everybody gives regardless of age. But then if you ask them more, well, what about it makes it fun? What do you enjoy about it? What's your favorite thing about it? Then you tend to get to like what actually is going on.
And so at 9, he can verbalize that pretty well. My 4 year old, you know, he points to his Minecraft realm and goes doggies and parrots and birds and he's got basically like massive farm and he just likes the animals and that's so appropriate for his age. You have built a barn for your animals, which to me is like, that's compassion. You understand factually that animals need shelter and you have built one for them and it's a hot mess. There's no organization going on there. But it's fun and he's getting to build things however he wants. And so like as a parent I can observe that happening. And then if you have older teens, you know, the older kids get, the less they want to tell you about what's going on. But yeah, oftentimes if you ask somebody about the game they're playing, gamers tend to really like sharing about their games and what they like about it. Your best way forward is to not assume, you know, why they're playing or what they're getting out of it, but just to ask them and in an age appropriate way.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: That's the challenge, right, to assess if you like the answer or not and whether you like it or not to move on with the conversation, right, because you don't want to block, you don't want to judge, you don't want to be judgmental. With my daughters, the first, not the first thought but like I tend to give my opinion on it and my opinion, maybe, you know, it's judgmental sometimes so I have to refrain myself so that I don't block the communication channel, right?
[00:15:04] Speaker B: It can be tough. The other day my 4 year old came up to me and like dead eye, just dead serious, looked me in the eye and said, mommy, I died. And like I just, I had this visceral reaction of excuse, what? And he was in Minecraft and like he got eaten by a creeper and it was not a big deal but like it's really weird to hear those kinds of words coming out of the mouth of your four year old. And so like just being mindful of that and I have found that curiosity is really the best Way to lead before I open my mouth and say something is to be curious about it. Now obviously there are exceptions. So for example, my kiddo, my oldest, he's just turned nine and prior to being nine, we let him play Fortnite, but only the user generated content that was labeled as E.
So like, and by default there's no guns in those. They're like more exploration, jumping, platforming type of experiences. And so we talked to him about that. I was like, hey, you know, this is what we feel like is appropriate for you. And when you, you just turned nine, so now you can, we'll open it up to, you know, the stuff that's rated T. And the reason it's rated T is because of it has guns. But we're not allowing, like you can't talk with anybody who's not on your friends list. Like we, we've had very in depth conversations about like safety in online spaces and you know, how to pick a good gamer tag, how to put good passwords, like just kind of tech hygiene. It's so important to keep the kiddos safe because if you do see your kid in a safe place, like if I walk in and my child was playing an inappropriate game, maybe he was playing like he's nine. So like Doom, you know, that's an M rated game that would be inappropriate for him. Doom's a great game. No hate on Doom, but not appropriate for a nine year old. Then it's okay for me to step in as a parent and go, hey, this isn't appropriate for you. This is a game that is rated for people who are 18 and older because of the content that's in it. You know, there's some scary, there's blood, there's gore, There's a lot of things in here that's not appropriate for a nine year old. So no, you cannot play that. Or if there's a safety concern. This actually happened to me the other day. My son was playing. He's like, mommy, someone joined my game and I don't know who they are and like parental settings have been set and I'm like, and it's someone. So he was playing under my account and one of my friends had joined because they thought I was playing. But he instantly flagged for me that someone had joined his game. And so once I made sure that everything was safe, they were like, okay. So this would happen. I changed some of the settings so my friends couldn't join and it was all fine. But like that would be, it's good.
[00:17:19] Speaker A: That he flagged it. Right?
That's what you want the kids to do.
[00:17:24] Speaker B: Because we've talked about it so much of, like, hey, this is who's allowed and this is who isn't. And the consequences of this is, like, trust is built. And so you are getting more trust and getting to do more things as you get older because you're proving we can trust you. If you break that trust, then things are going to start getting taken away and we're going to have to be more careful in what we do. And so, like, every child's needs are going to be different. Everybody's. Every parent's risk assessment and limits are going to be different, too. But yes, like you said, generally starting with not jumping to a conclusion, remaining curious and bringing that curiosity. Because if they're talking to you, that's what we want. Even if we don't like what they're saying, we want them to talk and communicate about what's going on. And then once we have kind of a fuller understanding and we're able to put that judgmental bit aside and we can look at what actually is happening. And what is my role as a parent in this moment? Is it to listen to my kid? Is it to support my kid? Is it to give gentle correction? Is it to put up barriers? Is it to prioritize safety? Like, what is the role I should take in this moment, what's needed in this exact situation and go from there?
[00:18:27] Speaker A: Sounds great and doable.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Well, I don't know about that. That's a big ask.
Like, don't get me wrong, it is. It is so hard because at the end of the day, you've just done full days of work. You've probably made dinner, it's after dinner, and your brain is fried and you're folding laundry, and the last thing you want to think about is, like, what is the safety rating on this game?
[00:18:44] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: And it's just one more thing that we ask of parents. But it is the same thing of, like, you know what? If your child was going to go to the playground, you'd want to know which playground they're going to. You would be aware of. Like, if they have to cross busy streets, you'd want to know who they're there with.
You'd want to set, like, limits around when do you have to be home. And if they're under a certain age, you would not send them there by themselves.
Like, you would want to be with them or have another responsible adult there. So it's one of those things of. Yes, it is. Asking More of parents. And I always want to be really mindful of that as a, as a parent. Like, there's already so much asked of us, but also it's not that different than the best practices we know for offline digital spaces.
[00:19:23] Speaker A: I agree. Yeah. When I said it's doable, I said it's doable in the sense that it's not nuclear science.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:19:29] Speaker A: I didn't mean it was easy.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: No, that's great. Yeah. Doable, but not easy.
[00:19:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Patience and all of those things at the end of the day are lacking usually.
[00:19:39] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: So from a mental health perspective, what would you say it's a healthy relationship with video games versus a non healthy relationship with video games.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: So this comes up quite a bit in my clinical work and typically what I'm asking is like, are you happy with the time that you're playing? Are you able to do all of the things that are needed of you in your day to day as a human student, whatever it is, and then are you happy with the time you're spending? Because most people, you know, when they're in a good relationship or a healthy relationship with their games is they'll say, yeah, I'm happy that I spent that time playing that game. Or I feel better having played.
I feel like my mood is higher or I'm more relaxed or like, I'm so glad I got to hang out with my friends. I'm so glad I got to have fun and make progress on something. I feel accomplished. Like there's a general positivity, neutral to positive response after playtime. And what I look for as a clinician is when that's not the case, if you're feeling worse off after you play than when you started, if you yourself feel like, oh, you know, I really don't want to play, but I feel like I have to because if I don't, I'm gonna let my friends down. You know, we've been planning this, say a raid or something, and if I don't go, we don't have a healer, so I have to show up. Or, you know, I really want to go to bed. But like, you know, my friend just came on and I can do a couple more games. Like there's this kind of like obligation type of feeling or pressured into playing when you don't want to. And that is always a big red flag or, and how you think about your gameplay. Cause there's some people who play a perfectly normal amount of time, but then they internalize it as, oh, I wasted so Much time I wasted those two hours playing and then I want to be really curious about. Okay, well what's, there's a dichotomy here. If you spent two hours playing and then you regret it, there's something going on there and it's not necessarily the game. It is clearly your perception of the value of that game and your time in there. And if you're not having fun, that's one thing. But if you enjoyed yourself but then you're beating yourself up afterward about it. Again, as a clinician I'm very curious and I have a lot of questions. So yeah, just really what does that relationship look like and does it mirror a healthy relationship as you would see in other spaces?
Are you happy you read that book? Are you happy you went to that concert? Are you happy that you did that after school activity? Is it bringing joy or like a sense of accomplishment and fulfillment and improving your life? And if so you're probably fine. But if it's bringing you down, if it's getting in the way of doing the things you need to do, then there's probably a problem there.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: What about kids or adults self awareness on their relationship to video games? Like when you say I feel worse after playing video games than before, that is something you need to be aware of. Like you need to come to that conclusion as a parent. Right. My child has finished playing video games and I don't know if they know they're feeling worst. You know, like how do you raise the awareness in children?
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Yeah. So obviously the, the age of the child matters a lot. But the obvious signs are like, is your child rage quitting? You know, if they're. My 4 year old threw a controller the other day and I was like, absolutely not. We're stop, we're done. You're going to your room to cool down, the TV is off. Like we're done. And it was, I don't know, a creeper. I don't know. Creeper got him something in Minecraft. And so like there's sometimes there's really clear signs. Or my oldest, when he was playing fall guys, I can hear him from the other room, like get frustrated. That's not fair. And you could hear them like ramping up. And so the cool thing that I like about that is that's my opportunity to see step in in real time and address the issue.
Like, hey kiddo, I'm hearing a lot of like loud shouting what's going on? And he'll tell me what's going on. And you know, even the four Year old will tell me what's going on and it's like, okay, well, it doesn't sound like you're having a lot of fun right now. You sound kind of angry or I'm hearing you and it sounds like you're stressed or, or upset. What do you think about, like taking five minutes to walk away or take a breather and then come back to it? Cause I'm not Yankee. I don't want them to associate. If I share how I'm feeling, then the game gets taken away because that's not the association we want. But if I'm hearing something like that distress, I want to check in and offer in real time coping mechanisms. Take a breath, take a break, go get some water, go run a lap around the yard. You know, go do something to take care of this energy that's clearly building up. And then he comes back to the game and if I hear it again, I'm like, okay, you know what? It sounds like this game needs to be put on pause and why don't you go play something else?
And as a parent, you know, my job is to redirect. My job is to hear that and to be aware of it. I would say if your kid is playing and they finish playing and they're just their normal selves, again, that's that neutral state. Like we don't need everybody to be skipping with rainbows and puppies. But mostly like, do they seem like they're normal selves after a normal amount of play? And again, to the, the point of if you tell a child to stop playing and they don't want to, they're going to be mad about it. That's not what I'm talking about. That's a completely different thing that I'm sure we'll get to and that can be really, really challenging. But like, if they're in their play and they're enjoying it and they're having a good time, then yeah, that's, that's the awareness comes from, at least for a child, is that the parent really needs to bring that out. I don't expect my 9 year old to be mindful of it. Um, although I will say there are a couple times he was playing fall guys and he walked away. He's like, mommy, I just, it's just too much. I'm taking a break. And I'm like, that's great. I'm so proud of you. That's a good job. You know, it's always going to be there. You can always go back. But yeah, go Take a break. But they're not going to get there unless they see either us modeling it. So if we're playing games and we're getting frustrated and we choose to walk away, that's great. Or planting the seed in their head, like giving them the options on the table. Because when they're younger, they don't, you know, either they don't know those options or their brain can't quite executive function itself into finding them.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: So basically we need to teach them self regulation, which is another teaching that Kings provide. Right.
[00:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And a lot of adults could benefit from too.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: It is really hard, though, when you're like, in the game and to be aware that you're angry and you need to calm down. Yeah.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: And like, how valuable is that? Because, you know, if a kid's at school and they feel that stress and that pressure and that tension coming up, if they've had practice at home of like, oh, when I feel like this, you know, I throw things or I get in trouble or I need to take a break. It's such this great rehearsal space where they can have those feelings, learn to notice those feelings and then hopefully have coping strategies for how to manage those feelings in a way that keep them and the people around them safe.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And so useful for life at work. Everywhere.
[00:26:06] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: With friends, everywhere, family.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:26:09] Speaker A: Yeah. So you mentioned when you, like, gaming time is over. Because I know time is not the only important variable in gameplay, but let's assume there. A lot of families use time as a constraint.
[00:26:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:24] Speaker A: How do you manage that situation where they don't want to stop and you need them to stop.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Yeah. So again, varies by age. But what I would say for our older kiddos, like 9, 10 early tweens, where you still kind of have control, but they are, you know, so not teenagers where they're more independent, but more, you know, younger that still need to pay attention and listen. It's just being really clear about expectations. So I know our family, we eat dinner together every night at the table. It's not always the same time because again, we're far from perfect. That would be ideal. But, you know, we one, we give them a heads up. Hey, guys, dinner's gonna be ready in 10 minutes. So whatever you're doing, finish up your game, hit your save point, hit your checkpoint, like, save things up, wrap it up, because dinner's gonna be ready in about 10 minutes. So that's a really helpful, like, alert for them to know that it's coming. So we're not surprising. We're not yanking cords. We're letting them know, do they ever actually finish on time? No. Like, I just want real, real realistic expectations here. I usually have to remind them of, okay, guys, it's time for dinner. I need you to stop. And then I give them a grace period of like, okay, you know what? I've told you, dinner's ready and it's on the table. And if you're not, like, if they're not little selves are not in their seats within like, you know, 30 seconds to a minute, all like, hey, dinner's on the table and you need to come sit down or I'm going to go in there and turn off your console. You know, there, there's different ways of thinking about it, but like that there are consequences and they're directly tied to their actions. So like the other day, my youngest just refused to come to eat breakfast. And it wasn't even a video game. He was just playing a board game on the floor and he still wouldn't come. And so he didn't get breakfast. And he was like, I'm hungry. I'm like, well, lunch is in two hours. The natural consequences of the choices that they're making. And you know, again, for four year olds, that's. That, that might have been a little tough on him, but yeah, so that's really helpful. So the, the time, the alerts, knowing what your kid is playing. So for example, if a child is playing a game that's cooperative and they're on a team, maybe they're in the middle of a game and quitting, that would actually be detrimental to their team. It might, you know, if you're not a gamer, like, well, who cares? Well, if you're playing with your friends and you quitting in the middle of a game is going to make your team lose. As a kid, that feels awful because you've let your friends down and let you let your team down and you can't pause it as opposed to like a Roblox or a Minecraft or something where you can pause and walk away and then it will be there when you get back. So having an awareness of expectations, I know for Fortnite, you know, my average game is like 15 minutes. And so if it's approaching dinner time, like, okay, well, you probably, you know, this is going to be your last game, okay, then we're going to stop for dinner because you can't get through another game in like the five minutes between when you finish and when you start. So setting those kind of expectations for them and that Kind of guidance around it can be really helpful. And some kids have a really, really hard time disengaging. And so knowing those natural pause points in a game, like the end of a match or, you know, in Minecraft, like, okay, you know what, Everybody went to bed. We're gonna stop right there for the day. And you can come back to it after dinner, you can come back to it after your homework. It makes more sense for them and it's easier to step away at those, like, logical disengagement points.
[00:29:29] Speaker A: And in your experience.
So I'm. My daughters are 6 and 8, so I don't have teenagers at home. But if we start early, you know, setting up those that mindset, like, are you happy? Are you not happy playing the game? You know, the timing you have to be mindful of, you know, what you're gonna play and when's dinner? When they're younger, does that mean do they learn it from when they're teenagers and they can manage themselves? In your experience in the clinic?
[00:30:00] Speaker B: That's a tough question. I mean, in general, just like in psychology in general, what we start teaching young tends to carry through life. And I know when I've talked with parents about, well, how soon can I let them have an iPad, you know, to use, and how early can I let them play video games? And what I always like to remind parents is like, technology is not going away. You know, our kids use computers. They. My kids have laptops that they have at school that they use every day. Tablets are everywhere, gaming is everywhere. This idea that if you don't, like, if you prevent your child from accessing it, you're doing them a favor, like being very mindful. When they get older, they're going to have access to these things. And either one, they're going to have no experience regulating themselves around it whatsoever because they've never learned, they've never had a chance to practice, and they're just going to go off and, you know, without any skills or information or background in it. And so being mindful of that and it can actually put them at a disadvantage. You know, kids that are aware of what's going around them in terms of technology are going to have better safety understandings, they're going to have better social awareness of these things, they're going to have better skills. Like, I mean, can you imagine if you didn't let a child type until they were 16, how far behind would they be?
[00:31:09] Speaker A: I don't even know if that's possible in today's.
[00:31:11] Speaker B: I don't probably not. But I know there's some parents who are so rigid in like their tablet use. And I'm like you, you do realize that like these are essential pieces of technology that our kids are going to use for the rest of their lives now managing what's on the tablet, 100% agree. But like the tablet itself is not inherently evil.
And yeah again, as a parent I'm never gonna judge someone who says yes tablet, no tablet, but just trying to destigmatize the idea that tablets are inherently of themselves, evil. That is a problematic approach to tech because again, it's not going anywhere. And I would much. I remember when I was a kid my parents, I was like 12 years old, they were having wine with dinner and I'm like I'm almost 13, I should have wine. And my parents were like here. And it was revolting. And I think like When I was 15 I said that about beer and I tried beer and it was disgusting and I didn't even, I didn't even drink through college. Like I had no desire and I had no interest because I had been allowed to like experiment, quote unquote in a place that was safe. I got to try something, realize this is disgusting and have no peer pressure about pretending that it was good. And so like that's what I want for my kids. I want them to grow up in an environment where they can ask questions, where they have the opportunity to learn and fail and make mistakes and check in. My 4 year old somehow bought a 30 game. I don't know how because our parental controls are like unlock and I have to go back and fix that. But like that's a really great moment of like no, you can't do that. Let's talk about why we're not allowed to do that. And so I think seeing it as opportunities for teaching skills versus this is a point of challenge and obstruction in our day to day life. Like that mental shift I think is so important for parents. We're not going to get it right every time I still yell at my kids, I said dinner was ready, get your butts. Like definitely not perfect. But I try, I really do generally try to walk what I talk.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: It's a learning opportunity and not something to avoid until they're 30. Self regulation is one of the key skills to teach. Self regulation and critical thinking probably in older.
[00:33:12] Speaker B: Oh absolutely.
[00:33:13] Speaker A: I do see that the what you just mentioned, like growing with it and teaching them all those skills along the way may have an impact then when they're teenagers, may maybe they're more ready to face them than if you haven't done it before.
[00:33:26] Speaker B: The way I always try to think about it is at some point, they won't want my opinion anymore. They won't want my feedback. They will have to go off and make their own decisions. And my goal as a parent is to equip them as much as I possibly can to make good decisions. Are they always gonna be good? No, because teenagers are literally missing the front part of their brain. Like, neurologically, of course you're not gonna make good decisions all the time. But I would never want there to be a situation that I could have prepared my child for, and I chose not to because it's a game and it doesn't matter and it's not important, like, if my kid is coming up against. I mean, it's wild in school, they're talking about phishing. My kiddo came home with, like, a report card. Talking about how they talked about, like, online safety and cyberbullying and being wearing a phishing and like, all of that stuff coming up too. And some of my parent peers are like, well, that's silly. Why do they need to know about that? I'm like, absolutely, they should know about that. Online safety is so important and it's so inextricably tied to the games that we play and like, our tech use, whatever it is like, it. It all comes together in that way. So, yeah, again, every kid is going to be different every outcome. I can't. You know, if your kid makes bad decisions as a teenager, it's not necessarily your fault as a parent. Like, there's. There's enough blame going on in the world about. About parents.
But yeah, that idea of like, you know what? I'd rather you lose your stuff playing fall guys and have an absolute meltdown and throw a controller and give me this moment to talk with you about frustration tolerance and emotion regulation and recognizing your own body's cues and what to do when you get so upset that you want to scream and throw things.
I'm so thankful for those opportunities for when he's a 9, he's been 8 and 9. I'm sure this will happen again when he's 10 and even 11.
Because in my brain I'm like, okay, this is practice. And hopefully this practice means that these similar kinds of things, whether they're in games or in the wider world, are less likely to happen and he's better prepared for them.
[00:35:28] Speaker A: I love that perspective.
[00:35:32] Speaker B: Again, aspirational, you know, taking pictures.
[00:35:34] Speaker A: There's basic digital literacy concepts that, of course, I'm passing on, but it's not. Yeah, but not the whole gaming.
[00:35:43] Speaker B: And, yeah, I come to this from. I've literally played video games since forever. I have a degree in game design. I have a doctorate in psychology. And even I find this hard. I have so much empathy and compassion for parents who are trying to navigate this when they. When this is not a world that they grew up in and not a world that they're familiar with. Like, this has been my life. I've been a geek my entire life.
And, you know, adding that into parenting, it's still really, really hard. And so that's why with parents, I always try to frame it as, you know, this is just another aspect of parenting, and you're doing the best you can. That's really all anyone can ask. And no one is perfect. But there are strategies we can do to try and maybe make some of the bumps a little bit smoother and maybe reframe challenges as, like, opportunities for learning, given the time that if we have the time and the spoons and the capacity to do those things, like. Like even just once in a while can go so far in helping our kids feel seen and heard and validated and that, like, that they have the skills to learn and grow and do better.
[00:36:43] Speaker A: What brings you hope in mental health and video games? Where is it going? Like, the whole video game industry or.
[00:36:51] Speaker B: There'S a whole new class of clinicians like our Gen Z clinicians that are coming up who have never known a life without technology, without video games, and they are so clocked in on using games therapeutically. I would say when I started, I did not know a single person who was interested in psychology and games and therapeutic capacities. Not that there weren't, but I'd certainly, like. Sara Lynn Bowman was probably out there doing work. Dr. Megan Cannell, I think, was doing some TTRPG work at that time, but, like, it just didn't exist.
And now I'm in Facebook groups with hundreds of people who are all mental health professionals or aspiring mental health professionals asking, how do I use Minecraft in therapy? How do I use this TTRPG strategy? How do I bring in the stuff that games have to offer into the room with my clients? And that gives me so much hope because it's very, like, whiplashy of. I look what I went through when I was a student and coming through. And even when I'm still trying to get into professional spaces, when I'm trying to go to, like, psychology conferences and get talks about games and mental Health accepted. There's still so much stigma and there's so much pushback. And the amount of times I hear from fellow clinicians about old games are addictive and they're evil and they're bad and we shouldn't, you know, we shouldn't ever use them. And I'm like, whoa, no. You know, you would never ever say that if a kid liked soccer or football.
Like, if a kid had an interest, you would bring that into the therapy room with you. You would value that type of insight and connection with them. And I see that really changing. I see the old guards starting to accept the gen behind me again, have never known anything else and have lived the importance of digital games in their lives.
That is what brings me a lot of hope, is that I do see a way forward where we can use games in a way that is therapeutic and helpful and talk about them without having to first talk about violence or the scary stuff. Like, I can say, hey, I study games and mental health and people don't automatically assume I'm doing it for, like, bad reasons, but, like, that there is potential there.
[00:38:56] Speaker A: I love that. And I 100% agree. Right. Video games are an experience that shape your brain, so we could use it to actually do great things. They're so powerful. Yeah. I'm so passionate about that topic.
[00:39:09] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Let's not jump into there.
And. Well, you've mentioned a lot of practical tips for parents. What are the top three advice that would you would give parents?
[00:39:20] Speaker B: Curiosity. Leading with curiosity every time. And that's just good life advice in general too. Like, if you feel stuff coming up on yourself within yourself, whether it's wanting to be dismissive or if you're getting angry or if you're confused, like, anything that's coming up, be curious about where that's coming from and see whether if it actually is the game in the kid or if there's some of your own stuff coming up. Just lead with curiosity and don't jump to conclusions.
To always remind yourself that screens are not the enemy. No one got addicted to school when we were online for Covid.
It's not the fact that there's a screen. It really comes down to the content, like, what is on the screen. So just to be mindful of, like, all of the clickbait of, you know, screen time destroyed a generation and the book, the anxious generation, like, all of those are just, they're. They're stirring a moral panic to make parents afraid of a tool that can actually be really beneficial to us as parents and as well, as to, like, the development of our children. So that's the second one. And then three is just like, be kind to yourself. Being a parent is absolutely the hardest thing in the world. And you're not always gonna get it right. You're going to screw up, you're gonna fail. I know I joke that my goal for my kids is for them to need less therapy than I do. Like, that's the bar I've set for myself. Or like, if they need to see a therapist, it's like a quick fix. Not like years and years and years. And so just, you know, you're not perfect. You're never gonna be. And that's okay. Just if you're listening to this and you're wanting to connect with your kids, if you're wanting to use games in a way to have connection and better understand what's happening, that's always a really, really good indicator that you as a parent care and are active. That just means everything.
[00:40:56] Speaker A: I love it.
Is there any contacting for, like, website where people can parents can read your work or get involved in projects you're doing?
[00:41:08] Speaker B: Sure. I am the executive director of Take this, which is a mental health nonprofit specifically serving game players and game developers. We have some
[email protected] that are geared at parents. We do go to different conventions. We have, like, handouts, like, you know, games to play with your kids, strategies for balancing, you know, gaming time with family time, things like that. So you can find those resources there. For me personally, my website is my last name, so D U N L A p and then PsyD. So Dunlap Society. My doctorate and my research is on there. So the book chapters I've written, the articles, the interviews, all of that stuff, my contact information is on there as well in case anyone is interested in reaching out.
[00:41:47] Speaker A: Thank you so much. This was super interesting and I got great tips.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: Oh, good.
[00:41:54] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:41:58] Speaker A: Thank you for joining us in this episode of Pixel Parenting. A huge thank you to Dr. Kelly Dunlap for sharing her expertise and helping us reframe how we think about video games. Tools for learning, connection and healthy growth. If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Dunlap's work, check out the nonprofit Techdist and follow her talks and resources. Online links will be in the show notes.
Remember, healthy gaming isn't about counting hours. It's about balance, connection and curiosity.
Thanks for listening and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. I'll see you next time on pixel parenting.
