Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Pixel Parenting, the podcast where we explore how to raise kids in a world full of screens using science and curiosity. Today's episode is about one of the most debated questions in parenting and media. Do violent video games actually make kids more aggressive? We'll learn how scientists define violence in games versus how the media frames it, what thousands of studies really say about links to aggression, and why context matters far more than headlines suggest.
We will also get into practical advice for what to look for beyond game ratings, how to talk with kids about games that make you uneasy, and why conversations, more than restrictions are key to raising thoughtful, resilient digital citizens. So I'm very excited to welcome Dr. Rachel Kowert to Pixel Parenting. Dr. Kowert is a psychologist and game researcher. Her amazing work on video games and mental health has been featured in media such as the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and Wired, among others. She's also the founder of Zeitgeist, a YouTube channel and podcast where she breaks down the science of games in a way that's approachable for everyone. So I'm very excited to have Dr. Kowert here today. Thank you, Dr. Kowert, for being here. I'm very excited about this conversation on violent video games. It is a hot topic amongst parents, and I have a lot of questions.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: So.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Let'S start by defining how violent video games are, defining the scientific literature versus, you know, like the common media describes them.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: I think the big difference is that in games, violence doesn't necessarily have to be realistic, although I don't know if that is. Is necessarily a difference, but it tends to be in the way we talk about it in the media and when we talk about it in games, because a lot of times they say, oh, it's violent, it's so realistic. And that becomes an extra layer of concern, I think, about the Mortal Kombat controversies of the 1990s. So I think there's not. There's a lot of overlap between the two. But I think the real distinction we is, is it cartoonish, Is it more fantasy violence, or is it more realistic violence?
[00:02:06] Speaker A: Many parents talk to me and they say, well, the fact that the blood is green or the blood is red, that doesn't make it less violent. So what does research say about that?
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Right. It. It doesn't make it less violent from a basic definition. But if you ask a parent to tell you about a violent game, they're likely going to say something like a fighting game, like Mortal Kombat or Grand Theft Auto or Call of Duty or these games that seem very overtly Violent ver versus Brawl stars, which is also violent. You're punching and kicking and throwing people around, but it's not usually the one that comes to mind. So when I talk about that distinction, I think that in their minds they have these categories of what is acceptable violence. The more realistic it is. Like if there is blood versus if there's not blood, that's where the concerns start to heighten. Versus something like brawl stars.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: So what does actually research show about violent video games and aggression?
[00:02:59] Speaker B: We have spent so much time and so much money studying this relationship, understandably, because there is a great concern about whether or not media is impacting especially our children in a negative way. There is no evidence of the thousands of studies we've done that directly link video game violence to real world violence. Now, there's a caveat here because your listeners might be thinking, well, I've definitely seen headlines that say that violent games are linked to violence. But what we have seen is there is a small handful of studies that have linked violent video games to short term increases in aggression when it's measured in a laboratory.
Now, we could talk all day about what that actually means in terms of behavior change, but it's that small handful of studies that have been illuminated in the headlines and kind of sensationalized and twisted in a way to say, oh, this must mean that violent video games lead to real world violence, when really we're not seeing that.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: What kind of violent behaviors are tested in the lab? Like, how do you measure that?
[00:04:01] Speaker B: I love that you asked this question because this is where you get into the sticking point. So if you see a headline that says, oh, people played 15 minutes of Grand Theft Auto in a laboratory. Now they're more aggressive. If I saw that as a headline, I might be immediately like, oh my gosh, that's awful and terrible. But when you dig into it, there are a couple methods that are typically used. One is a word completion task. So someone comes into a lab, they see ki blank, blank. They write kiss. They play 15 minutes of a game, they come back, they see the same thing, and instead of kiss, they put kill. And they judge that as an increase in aggression, which I guess you could say maybe is. But how that translates into behavior change is a different question. The other method we often see is called the hot sauce method, which is you bring somebody in and you say, okay, there's someone else in the other room. We've never met. They hate spicy things that I have this really spicy hot sauce. How much hot sauce should I give them? And they're like, oh, that's awful. None. Why would you do that? And then you play 15 minutes of a game, and then you come back and you say, actually give them loads of hot sauce. And that increase in volume of theoretical hot sauce you're giving a theoretical stranger is considered an increase in aggression. So when you think about it that way and you really dig into it, it's like, maybe you could make an argument on a generous day that in those 15 minutes their cognitions have shifted. But I do not believe that that then translates to. Well, it definitely doesn't. Into behavior change over time because of those 15 minutes in the lab.
[00:05:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I can see that. And is there any research related to violent video games that has been done outside of the lab? Like, you know, taking data from, you know, the big players on these kind of games and report it?
[00:05:34] Speaker B: It's really difficult to do that in the sense of you can't just kind of follow people around and see if they commit crime, first of all.
But second, you know, games that would fall under the umbrella of having any kind of violence, fantasy violence, simulated violence, whatever. It's a lot games. A lot of games have them. Like I said, Brawl Stars, I. I think that might be 13 and up. Don't quote me on that. But it's not made just for 18 and up and adults. So no is the short answer. But I will say there have been studies that have looked at population trends, and this is one of the arguments that's made most staunchly against there being a direct link, which is over the last 40, 50 years, we've seen a steady increase in the consumption of games that would be considered to be games with violent content. And at the same time, we've seen a steady decrease in crime among under 18 offenders. They call them youth offenders. And this is important because kids under the age of 18 have the most time to play these kinds of games. They're also thought to be the most susceptible to media messages. So if there was a direct relationship where playing violent video games directly increased the propensity for crime, you would expect them both to increase over time. And we're seeing the opposite happen where consumption increases and violent crime is decreasing.
[00:06:46] Speaker A: How important is the context of playing video games, violent video games, and I'm saying about child age, temperament, self regulation, the whole environment, how does that impact the child if playing violent video games? Because for what you're saying, maybe violent video games is not the only source of potential aggression or whatever in real.
[00:07:10] Speaker B: Life context is really important. I mean, our children are Consuming media, whether it's games, whether it's film, whether it's television, we want to make sure it's developmentally and age appropriate. I tend to lean into developmentally appropriate because age 15 year old, my 15 year old is different from your 15 year old. You know, it may or may not be appropriate for them. So I do think that the context is important. But when we're talking about what impacts child's propensity for violent action or aggressive action, when you look at the research, there's been some great meta analyses done by Chris Ferguson at Stetson University, and he looks at things that we know contribute to violence, like exposure to violence, peer delinquency, low frustration tolerance, low emotion regulation, all those sorts of things. And you put those in the statistical model and then you also put like plays, violent video games in the statistical model. And when you account for all those other demographic factors, games have no impact at all on their behavior. And so I think it's really important, like you said, to think about the context and the whole person, we're talking about their behavior. Because I've played a lot of games in my life where maybe you commit crimes or do things that are not great. And it has not changed my worldview to say in and of itself that experience is not enough to totally change someone's worldview and perspective and then consequent behavior.
[00:08:32] Speaker A: That's a relief for parents that are listening.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: It should be a relief, you know, and so many parents are scared and worried about their kids. I'm a parent of three. I am scared and worried about my kids all the time. And we should not have to have this worry constantly in the back of our head. This week I just heard it again from lawmakers in the United States saying they're going to start looking into video games as a driver of violent crime. And it is, I don't want to say a distraction. I mean, I guess it is a distraction because we've done this research, we've put millions of dollars of research funding into this to look at those links, and we just don't see them. So parents can be worried about all the other million things that we're worried about for our kids. But violent video games in and of themselves should not be at the top of that list.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: What do you think media is so obsessed with violent video games?
[00:09:18] Speaker B: It's an easy scapegoat for a really big, complicated, messy, nuanced, scary problem.
I had an Intro to Psychology teacher. She always said this phrase. She said, humans are cognitive misers. We're lazy thinkers. We want the easiest answer to any question. Always. That is what we're going to go for. So if we could just wrap it up in a nice little bow and be like, oh, it's the video game. Sweet, done, job over. Like that's what we want to do. We don't want to get into the nitty gritty conversation of poverty and lack of education and access to weapons and online radicalization. I don't know all the other things that we could be talking about that contribute to someone's propensity to commit crime.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it's complicated and that's an easy goal, like you said. So what should be parents be looking into video games when beyond rating. Right. When kids are playing video games and I feel like most video games have violence on them. I mean violence in the sense that, you know, you get points for killing people, stealing.
There's also, cooperative games and you know, management games that, well, management games actually also some have violence. I mean in civilization, you invade. You do you go to war?
Yes. Right. So there is violence in that, but not, as you said, not that realistic.
[00:10:41] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: You don't see it that much. It's not that explicit.
So how can parents evaluate a game's content beyond age rating? What should we looking at?
[00:10:51] Speaker B: It is important for parents to know what their child is consuming. Age ratings is a great starting point, but it's not the end. All I often tell parents they should look over their child's shoulder when they're playing. I used to say play with them. I still strongly encourage that not all games are two players. Not all parents want to play and not all kids want to play with their parents. So I, I try to move away from that piece of advice. But if you could, you know, sit through a five year old's soccer game, which is usually the example I give because it's awful and they don't know where the ball goes. You can sit through five minutes of talking to your kid about what they're playing. And I find a lot of the worries that parents have are driven of fear of the unknown. And so if you can just say, what are you playing? Who are you with? Why do you like it? That alleviates a lot of, a lot of the fears that parents have about what their children are doing in these video games. So I would say have a touch point, have a sense of what they're playing. Ask them about it. Of course, look at the ratings. There are other resources like Common Sense Media has some resources. The Family Online Safety Institute has some Games, resources. So there, there are some things out there, but there's no substitute for just talking to your kids and, you know, looking over their shoulder every now and then.
[00:12:00] Speaker A: Yeah. What if you don't like what they answer?
[00:12:02] Speaker B: Yes, well, that opens a conversation. Of course, my children are pretty young, so My oldest is 10. But they. I wouldn't say they play games that I don't like, but they definitely have watched some dubious things on YouTube. Kids that I don't like. And I'll look over their shoulder and be like, what is that?
Can you explain that to me? And if I don't like it, we have a conversation about it and I say, you know, I don't like it. We're not going to watch it anymore. And I talked to you and you pleaded your case, and I looked at it and I said, no, I don't think so. And we as parents, especially as our children are young, you know, as they get older, we loosen the reins a bit. But we are the decision makers in the household, and we can decide what we think is appropriate and not because, you know, we've been making decisions five times longer than our kids have been making decisions.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: Yes, indeed.
So if a parent is anxious because their kids have been playing violent video games or a game that they don't like for a long time, what would you recommend? Like, how would you recommend that conversation.
[00:13:07] Speaker B: Goes if your children are engaging in a space that you are not comfortable with? I would sit down with them and I would express your concerns very openly and transparently. I am concerned because of X and hear what they have to say. I'm concerned because of Y, see what they have to say and see if you can come to a common ground. So much like with younger kids, when I talk about making, like, digital plans about screen time and this sort of thing, it's an open conversation, a negotiation, you know, if you will, as a teenager, the idea, in theory is that you are laying the foundation for them to be able to make smart and informed decisions.
And I don't know everyone's situation. I'm not going to be very prescriptive about, like, oh, you should take it away, and that's the end of it. Because it's a lot different when they're a teenager. But I would talk to them and have an open conversation because even if the conclusion of that conversation is their behavior is not going to change. You have expressed your concerns. That information will live in the back of their mind. You know, my mom tells me things all the time, and I'm like, okay, mom, whatever. And then the situation arises and it's back there, that thing she said that she sat down and talked to me about. So at least you've had that conversation and that'll be in there somewhere.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: Yeah, that's hopeful. I'm thinking about this group of parents that just came. They keep coming and they're like, oh, they play is one of those shooters. And they're like, they're playing online with only their friends. So they're in a safe space and they keep using all these bad words, you know, and like, the behavior, it's very aggressive, like bro here, bro there. And you know, like.
And parents get anxious because, like, they see their kid and they're like, oh, they're like transformed into this other person when they're playing this violent video game with their friends. What advice would you give to them besides talking? But then I guess all the parents should be talking to their kids. But, you know, there's a cultural thing that the kids behave as kids when they're around kids. So there's, you know, there's also gamer.
[00:15:06] Speaker B: Cultures which include the word bro a lot. I hear it a lot in my house.
You know, I think there's a. There's a few things to unpack there. One is that you are certainly allowed to have rules in your house about the language that they use and the way they behave when they conduct themselves online. And I think when we talk about cyberbullying, I've had those conversations a lot. Or with kids who repeat, like, racial slurs they hear online because they think it's part of the culture. And it's like, you certainly can have discussions about what is appropriate and inappropriate to say, which is a separate conversation from playing the game. But I would also say when you were explaining, you know, they're playing with their friends and it's. And it's a violent game and their behavior changes, we're really quick to just judge the game on the content because there's a lot of context there that's. That's missing. They are with, with peers who have certain language they use and act a certain way.
It might be competitive or it might be cooperative, or it might be high pressure and stressful. Right. They might have developed their own language that they use specifically in that space. So I wouldn't necessarily say, oh my gosh, the violent game is changing their behavior. I would say, okay, they're in a high pressure situation with their peers. Maybe this is the way in that context, it's appropriate for them to behave but maybe I don't like some of the words they're using. And now we're going to have to talk about that. Talking is always the answer, honestly. It's always the answer because we have to set rules and guidelines. We're teaching our children how to be good digital citizens in games or on other forms of social media. How they act, what they say matters. In these spaces, the peer influence can change and shift the way they see and interact with the world. Right. In gaming spaces, there's a lot of conversations about high rates of racism or, or high rates of discriminatory behavior towards women. Right. We have to have those conversations because it is influential in a social sense. I'm far less concerned about the content they're consuming and way more concerned about the social context of it all, honestly.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: So what gives you hope about, you know, where the conversation on violent video games is going?
[00:17:06] Speaker B: I am not sure because we still have it. We still have the conversation. I'm hopeful that people are open to a new way of thinking about violent games and the role that it has in our day to day lives. I will say, when that politician this week mentioned violent games, I did hear more of a collective uproar on the Internet of kind of like, oh my God, are we still talking about this? Move on, let's talk about other things. And I think that's a good sign. I also think it's a good thing that parents are concerned about what their children are consuming. Because I do feel like when I was a child there was less concern about what I was consuming and more just strictly on the time I was spending. And I think it's good that parents are interested and active and want to make sure, you know, they're, they're doing what they can to keep their kids safe.
[00:17:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And actually that leads me to another question that probably I may have asked before, I should have asked before, but like, why do we play violent video games?
[00:18:04] Speaker B: Why? So many reasons. You know, people play games for so many reasons. I'm imagining all these taxonomies in my mind. There's this researcher named Nikki from Stanford. He started a company called Quantric Foundry and he's surveyed over a million game players now and he's mapped out like the 16 or 18 different motivations that people have. But you know, games are really great for exploring taboos and things that are considered bad behavior. In a safe space. It could be really good for stress relief just to like mash buttons.
Some people want to know what it's like to have to work as A team under pressure in a simulated life and death situation.
Some people like it not for the game itself at all, but because all their friends are playing it. And if they want to socialize, that's where they have to go. I used to play a first person shooter for a while. This was years ago and I am terrible at those games and I hate those kinds of games. But I played them because all my friends were playing them. So it could be one of a million things. And also motivations to play them can even change over time.
I'm terrible at those games.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: I stopped playing. I mean the shooters. I'm so bad, so. And you need a lot of practice to get better. So you don't practice, you fall behind and then you're not competitive and then you get frustrated and then you just.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: Then your friends are like, oh, you suck. Boo. Yeah, no fun.
[00:19:24] Speaker A: Exactly. No fun.
So this was great insight. So where can listeners find your work, your major work on the on the topic and all the work that you do on on video games and mental health?
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Actually, I do have a YouTube channel. It's called Psychgeist. P S Y C H G E I S T. And I have lots of videos there about the science of games. So there's ones on violent video games, there's one on games and mental health. All free, of course, to watch.
And if you want to learn more about me and my work and my research, I have a website. It's R K O W E R.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: T.
I'll put that on the show notes and I highly recommend everybody to check them out. There's so much interesting content there.
Yes, there is. Yes, your work is amazing. So thank you.
That's it for today's episode of Pixel Parenting. We learned that while violent video games may look intense, decades of research show no direct link to real world violence. Instead, context, conversation, and connection with our kids are what really shapes their experiences. If you want to dive deeper into this topic, I highly Recommend Checking out Dr. Rachel Kowert's work. You can find her videos on YouTube at Zeitgeist and explore more of her research and resources on her website, rcoward.com I'll include those links in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. Don't forget to subscribe. Share this episode with a fellow parent and leave us a review if you liked it. It really helps us grow this community.
Until next time, keep asking questions, keep the conversations going and keep learning.
