Brain, Screens & Connection in Early Childhood | Rebecca Walsh

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to Pixel Parenting, the podcast where we explore how to raise kids in a world full of screens using science and curiosity. Today's episode is about early childhood and why those early years are so important for brain development. We will learn about how the brain actually grows in the first few years of life and how our phones might be getting in the way of real connection without us even realizing it. We also get into screen time for little kids, the magic of boredom, and how to build healthy habits in a very techie world. If you've got a baby, a toddler, or just want a better handle on how early childhood development really works, this one's for you. So I'm very excited to welcome Rebecca Walsh to Pixel Parenting. Rebecca is a founder of Early Childhood Matters, and she brings over 20 years of experience in early childhood education. She has a bachelor's degree in child development and a master's in in psychology. She has worked as a director, teacher, mentor, and parent educator. She's also a mom of three, and she started Early Childhood Matters after becoming a parent herself. Since then, she's been helping parents and educators better understand how to support young children's minds, emotions, and relationships, both here in the Bay Area and around the world. And before we dive in, a quick heads up. Rebecca is offering Pixel Parenting listeners 10% off any of her parenting workshops or mom groups with the code pixel parenting10. You'll find all the details and links in the show notes, including her Junior Nature Explorers program for ages 15 to 24 months and her podcast, Parenting Matters. Definitely worth checking it out. Welcome, Rebecca, and thank you for being here. [00:01:42] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me on today. I'm really excited. [00:01:45] Speaker C: Yes, me too. You have such a great experience. So tell. Can you tell us about your background and how you started your project? [00:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah, so. And before we jump into that, I just want to say I'm so happy to be here because the work that you're doing is so important, and I'm so glad that you've started this podcast and are just getting this information out to parents. [00:02:07] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you. It's a teamwork. [00:02:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:10] Speaker C: Been doing so much, too, so I'm. I'm happy to contribute and jump in the same mission. [00:02:15] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So I started early childhood matters in 2010, around when my oldest, he was born in 2009, and he was becoming a toddler. And as he was moving into what was supposed to be my comfort zone of working with children, I had directed preschools, taught in preschools, and had a lot of experience in early childhood, before Joey was born. And when he was turning into a toddler, I was like, great, now I know what I'm doing. I didn't know anything about the infancy years, but now I know what I'm doing. But I was quickly very humbled by that experience. And. And then I was trying to find a toddler class. Like, I had taken all these things about the first year, and I. So I tried to find a class on, you know, parenting a toddler. And at that time in San Francisco, there were none. And so I asked, actually, Natural Resources was the first place I ever taught. And I asked them, do you have a workshop on parenting your toddler? And they're like, no, but you would be the perfect person to teach it if we did. So that was it. That was. It was definitely one of those moments where you see a need in the community and then you see that you have a set of skills and those things kind of come together perfectly. So, yeah, so I started with those parenting or toddler workshops, ended up teaching them at Kaiser for many years and many resources around the city. And then it's slowly morphed to include first time moms groups, second time moms groups, and our Nature Explorers groups, where we get kids out into nature. Fun. I love that. Yeah, Love nature. [00:04:01] Speaker C: So what are some of the foundational principles of early childhood development that all parents should know? What do you talk about in all those classes that you give? [00:04:11] Speaker B: Okay, big question, but I'll try to answer it. Yes, I mean, I guess just starting with the name, right. Early childhood matters. For me, that has been my mission from the beginning, is helping parents understand the critical developmental windows of the early years and what an important impact we can have on our children when we are connected and present with them in those early years. And so that's kind of been a foundation for the work that we do. And one of the things that, you know, we talk about a lot is the. Those critical windows of development. So you have the first year where we know that up to 70 or 80% of the brain is developed. And by the. By year three, we know that that full 80% of the brain is developed. And then by five, we have 90% of the brain developed. And one of the things that I really want parents to understand is that the way that the brain has developed in the early years is through connection and presence. Um, so the brain develops from the bottom up. Um, the only part of our brain that's developed at birth is the brainstem. That's the part of our brains that just tell us what to do without us telling. Tell our bodies what to do without us telling, you know, breathing, heart rate, all of that. But starting even at birth, right when that first interaction, we begin to move up from the reptilian world and into our mammalian brain development. And so that next part of brain is the limbic system, and that part of the brain is the foundation for the rest of the brain to develop. So that's one important thing I always want parents to understand is that the rest of the brain that's going to develop from three to five, from five to adolescence, from adolescence to adulthood, and everything beyond is really going to be based on the density of the synaptic connections that happened in those first three years. So the denser that brain is in the first three years, the more, literally, the more neurons can build off of that and develop the next part of the brain. [00:06:32] Speaker C: So how. How do we make it dense as parents? [00:06:34] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Yeah, great question. So. So when we talk about brain density, we're talking about literally brain neurons coming together and forming connection. And there are really two important ways to create brain density in those early years. One is what researchers call a serve in return. And so that means when a child is reaching out for a connection, maybe, you know, a young toddler is pointing at something, looking at something, noticing something, that's their serve, right? That is what we call a connection serve. And so when that serve is returned through somebody, you know, noticing what they're pointing at, noticing what they're looking at, expanding upon, what it is that they may be interested in, that is a return. And so when we have a serve for a connection and that's returned, we have little synaptic brain coming together, brain neurons coming together. More fundamentally than that is a serve. That is a need serve, right? So when I am hungry, when I am in pain, when I'm cold, when I'm tired, you know, those are my other serves that I'm putting out. And is somebody there to comfort me? Is somebody there to feed me? You know, all of those really basic things. But is someone there to, you know, to be there for me? Both of those things are really essential. In fact, we know that if a child, you know, obviously a child can't survive, right, if they reach out and they're hungry and cold and tired and. And nobody's there, right? Like, we know. We know that they won't survive. But even if not everybody. And this is another thing I try to help parents understand. Even if a child is fed every three hours, their diapers are changed meticulously every two hours. So even if they have those basic need returns met, if they don't have the connection returns, that child will. Will not survive. Like, literally not survive. Wow. So. And the way that we know this is in, you know, when you look at the orphanage crises post World War I and then again post World War II and in lots of countries, I'm very, you know, familiar with a couple of studies. One was here in the US by Dr. Chaplin, and what he discovered was this was post World War I, and the ratios were like 1 to 30 in the orphanages. But they had meticulous charts of all the feedings and all of the, you know, diaper changes. Like, the nurses were doing their jobs as best as they could, and the survival rate to the age of two was zero percent. Yeah. Wow. Look it up. If you're interested, look up the American orphanage crisis, Dr. Chaplin, and you will see the survival rate was zero percent. And so they were very conf. At that time because they. That was the first time the medical world did not really understand that a baby needed love. And that seemed like a bonus thing that a baby could have love. Right. But, you know, but no, as mammals, we actually need love and connection for our brains to fully develop and thrive. And so that was. So that was one thing. And then what? You know, similarly, Anna Pinkley in Yugoslavia, similar orphanage crisis, and she went in and she taught the nurses that when you're changing the diapers and when you're feeding them, what I want you to do is to pick up the child, talk to them, pretend that they're the only baby in the room, and just connect with them. Right. Just one on one, and, you know, ignore all the other babies. I know you have a lot of babies you're looking after, but just every time you're feeding and every time you're changing a diaper, fully be present and fully connect. And the survival rates basically flipped just from that. That one addition of each child had several moments, even micro moments every day of being fully connected to. And, you know, they. They got up to like 80% survival rates. [00:11:09] Speaker C: Wow. That's amazing. I actually remember reading a paper. Maybe it was the same one. It was. They. And it was in an orphanage, too. It was. It was related to mental health, actually, the one that I read. [00:11:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, not just mental health, but also physical development. So you'll have, you know, children that are not able to walk, talk. I mean, it. It's. It's all connected. [00:11:34] Speaker C: Amazing. [00:11:35] Speaker B: Which kind of brings us to our Our topic here today. [00:11:38] Speaker C: Right, exactly. Actually, it leads us to my next question, which is, in this tech world, like, how do digital tools and screen exposure affect. Affect the development in these first few years? [00:11:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So we want the good news or the bad news? No. So, no. What's interesting is that I. When I had my son in 2009, I did not have an iPhone. And by the time I had my daughter in 2012, I did have an iPhone. Right. So, but what I got to see, because, you know, most people didn't really get iPhones until, like, you know, I would say they weren't really common until, like, 2010, maybe 2011. But so what I got to see was the evolution of parenting without an iPhone and with an iPhone. And it's been really interesting to see, and I think that it certainly gets in the way of these basic. I would say most parents are probably still feeding and cuddling and doing all of those things. Right. So, you know, our babies are thriving in that way. But what the big question mark and the big social experiment that we're doing is how many fewer connections until it's going to make an impact on the brain? Right. Is it that I missed 10 serves for my child? Well, that might be okay. That'll probably be okay, right? Did I miss 20? Did I miss 30? Now what happens to the child if they keep reaching out and they don't get that. That return? I mean, what would happen to you if you kept reaching out and didn't get a return from anyone? [00:13:25] Speaker C: I guess I would feel anxious, frustrated. I would feel frustrated, like, hey, I'm here. I'm here. [00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the first step. First we get anxious and frustrated and we keep trying. Right. And then what happens after that? [00:13:39] Speaker C: I would scream. [00:13:41] Speaker B: And, you know, obviously in those situations, the parent's gonna respond. But I mean, over time, if most of the things. When you're reaching out to a parent and most of the time they don't see you because they are, you know, on their phone, the child stops reaching out. [00:13:58] Speaker C: Okay, and what. Okay, but like, what are the consequences? [00:14:03] Speaker B: So that means that the child is not getting what every child from the beginning of time has gotten, which is that social interaction back, so that when I reach out to the people around me, that they will reach back. And we have, you know, we. We have that connection, and we have that synaptic connection. Right. So like I said, you know, does that mean that every single moment you need to be focused on your child and, like, watching for. No, absolutely not. And in fact, it's really good for children to have time, even infants, even very young toddlers to have time where they're playing on their own. Right. And where they're developing, you know, their own sort of imagination, ideas about, you know, even shadow and light. Right. So that's, that's not to say that we need to be there for every interaction, but consistently over time, if as a culture we're having fewer and fewer of those moments where we're connecting with our children, then it's, it's going to impact their development. [00:15:10] Speaker C: And do you know there's research already about this impact? [00:15:13] Speaker B: Yeah, there's, there's been some really interesting studies. You know, it's sort of, like I said, it's hard to study in the sense of like, okay, well, how many fewer. I mean, we have a lot of word studies, so we know that the amount of, of words that a child hears really impacts their language development. And there's a lot of studies on that. Right. And so that could be something that would be very concrete, like a parent that is, you know, talking to their child less because they're essentially more wrapped up in a, in a device that's going to impact their language development. But another interesting study that was done was around. They brought young toddlers into a room, I think they were about 18 months and into two years, I believe. And they had the mom on her phone and the child was playing. And then they brought the child back the next day. And this time the mom didn't have her phone anywhere in sight. The third day they brought the mom in and just had the phone in sight, but the mom wasn't on her phone. And they compared, what they compared was the level of play of the child. And what they found was when mom was on the phone, the child, the child's eyes attention span was much more limited. So they played with like many different things. They were bouncing around the room, they were unfocused. And then when the mom was off her phone, the child was focused, the play went deeper. And when the child was in, the phone was just there on the table. The mom wasn't on it. It was somewhere in the middle. [00:16:45] Speaker C: Interesting. And what was the mom doing while she was not on the phone? [00:16:50] Speaker B: So when the mom was not on the phone, she wasn't even interacting with the child. [00:16:53] Speaker C: Was she reading or, like doing something else or just sitting there? [00:16:56] Speaker B: I think she was just like available. Like if the child was like, yeah, she was just available, but she wasn't like on the floor actually playing with the child. But Another, I would say another major study that we have is around the impact of connected play with a child and how when we, you know, and one thing I teach parents is even like 10 minutes a day can be super powerful to just turn on. I would like put my phone on airplane mode, literally set a time for 10 minutes and then just be on the floor and following the child's lead. So you're not trying to teach them numbers, colors, letters, different languages. You're just following their lead. And we have many, many years of research now on the impact of, you know, those, like I said, serve and return. So if you can get a 10 minutes of, you know, a in return, then you have this, this development in their identity, their self esteem, their creativity, their engagement, their attention span, all kinds of things can be impacted. But I think it is. And this is maybe the tricky thing. It's really hard to know, like, at what point does that tip? Right? Like, so if I'm, if I'm with my child for 10 minutes a day, but then the rest of the day I'm sort of available if they need me, that's probably pretty good. But if the rest of the day I'm sort of not available, or how many connections am I missing before? The other important thing to know is that before three is when this is going to be the most impactful. [00:18:30] Speaker C: I was going to ask. And also spending 10 minutes per day, full focus seems easy, but it is not. And yes, maybe because we're tired at the end of the day. Right. [00:18:42] Speaker B: So yeah, and some parents find it's easier in the beginning of the day, you know, doing something like that in the morning. I usually found like right after, you know, like right before the whole evening routine of dinner and bath and all the tricky parts of, you know, your life with young children. If I could fit it in there, then we would go into connected mode. And what I found too was that it was really important for me to put my phone on airplane mode. [00:19:10] Speaker C: Yes, yes, I do leave it like by the door, by the entrance of the house. So. And that's where my kids know that I have to leave the phone so that I can pay attention to them. And sometimes they tell me, mom, you're on the phone again. And I'm like, ah, yeah, sorry. And then I, I park. It's the parking. [00:19:26] Speaker B: Good. You have a parking spot. [00:19:27] Speaker C: Have a parking spot. [00:19:28] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:19:29] Speaker C: It is hard. It, it's a habit. And it's a habit that it's hard to build and easy to break. [00:19:36] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think, you know, and I've definitely experienced that too. So I have three children now and my youngest is nine. And, you know, by the time Patrick, it came around, I was probably busier. I had more work things, you know, and so I did. I got the same thing like, mom, you're, you're on your phone. You're always on your phone, you know, and it was just like a wake up call for me as well. And so, you know, I tried to now know that from the time I pick him up to, from school until after dinner and just try extremely hard, whatever it is that I need to do, whether that's, I need to order something, I need to write somebody back, I need to da, da, da. It can all wait. And I have to remind myself of that all the time. And I think if you have a young child, it's trying to get in the habit of, yes, we're going to need to do stuff on our phones. Right. Like, we live in a modern world and there's everything from all of the mom things that we do, like ordering wipes and diapers to groceries to, you know, signing your child up for swim class and all of those things, they're all on these devices now. Right. And I think about our parents, they didn't have any of that on a device. And that's what I mean by. And Jonathan Haidt, in his anxious generation, you know, he calls this the greatest social experiment we've ever had. You know, we are now parenting in a way that has never been done before in history with, you know, all of our tasks. You know, it's different when your mom was on the phone, right? [00:21:09] Speaker C: Yes. And she was talking to another human and it felt like a conversation. While when we're on the phone, we're just looking at screens and they don't know what's happening. Even though I try to explain to them. I'm writing a message to Colette's mom, I'm writing a message to blah, blah, because we need to set up the play date for this weekend. [00:21:27] Speaker B: Yes, yes, exactly. [00:21:28] Speaker A: I tried to, mom, you're on the phone. [00:21:30] Speaker B: I'm like, I'm doing this for you. And literally 90% of what I do on my phone, I would say, is for my children. You know, when, when they're, when they're home because I'm working, you know, I might use my phone during the work, during the day, but like, when they're 90% of what I'm doing is for them. And so I use that for a long time. To justify my actions, I think. And then, you know, like I said when my youngest started calling me out on this and saying, you know, you're always on your phone, which obviously wasn't true, but the fact that he could even feel that way, I wasn't available to him, you know. And again, I think there's a huge difference between I'm not available to you because I'm cooking dinner. I'm not available to you because I have a call with a girlfriend. I'm not available to you because I'm talking to grandma. I'm not available to you because I'm going to go get some exercise. These are normal, healthy things that I'm 100% believe that we need to create those sorts of, that sort of modeling for our children. And that's okay. I'm not, I'm not a proponent and nor in any of my classes do I encourage parents to be a hundred percent all the time, you know, with their children. In fact, we know that that has huge negative outcomes for children if we are overly obsessed with them. Right? [00:22:48] Speaker C: Yes. Yes. We can talk about that later, too. [00:22:51] Speaker B: We're in front of them and checked out. I think this is what's different about this and this is what's new about this, is that we are now, we're not, you know, we may be scheduling something or doing, but. But to the child, we are present, but gone. [00:23:09] Speaker C: Yeah. And that's. And the brain is not used to that, right? [00:23:13] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:23:14] Speaker C: They're used to the. Back and forth. [00:23:16] Speaker B: Yes. [00:23:16] Speaker C: Yeah, yes. So we've been talking about our interactions with the phone as parents. What about the interactions with children on the screens? Like, any recommendations? [00:23:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, so. So I think fundamentally between zero and three, there are these two ways to think about screens and technology. One is our technology use and how that may be limiting the, the interactions, the rich, dense social interactions that a child needs to thrive. Right. But you can kind of think of it the same way if a child is on a device certainly before the age of three, because we know that three is that window. Right. Three is when the limbic brain is formed. The limbic brain is the social brain. Okay. After that, the child, you know, not right on their third birthday, but around three and a half. You know, they're, they have more access to what we call the cerebral brain. That's the thinking, learning, language brain, the executive function. And they don't have great executive function, obviously, at three and a half, because we know this brain finishes development 25, 27. But what we do Know is that the, the sort of being able to use reason, logic, all of that comes after three. What happens in those first three years is the social and emotional self. So going back to your question, we already know what builds that brain. When my needs are met and when the connections that I'm seeking are returned, that's the fundamental thing that I need. I also need movement. Right. And all of those, but like those are the fundamental brain, what we call brain builders. Connection returns and need returns. Okay. So when a child is not receiving that because a parent is on a device, that's one thing. Another thing is when a child is on the device, they are not building their brain to have those moments of connection. So whether that's with another person or whether that's with something that they're interacting with, you know, a toy or you know, an activity that they're doing, we, we know that play builds the brain because play allows experiments, it allows trial and error. And you know, we know there's, there's many elements of play that are not available in a one dimensional screen world. [00:25:46] Speaker C: That's why I think about the importance of between 0 and 3 if you have to give your child a screen. Because whatever the importance of co playing and being with them. Right, because, because if you're explaining to them what's happening on the screen and then translating that information into real life or making the connection with real life, then the screen could be useful but not necessary. [00:26:11] Speaker B: Right, right, yeah. I mean, I'm hesitant to use the word useful because I don't think that there's like, there's no need. Obviously, you know, humans have been around for, for a very long time without a need or a use for a screen. Right. So we know, I wouldn't say it's, it's useful. It can be less damaging in that way. Right, because you could be using it to connect. But you know the guidelines. As far as the American Academy of Pediatricians, it used to be two. And somewhere along the line, I believe it was in 2016, which is interesting. That means that my son was already, you know, seven years old by the time they change that guideline. 18 months. And I'm thinking there's no new research. We know about the brain and how anything changed about the brain or development. I don't know what, how that changed, but it's, it can tell you it's not based on research. When we think about a screen, we should think about it like frosting, you know, or a special cake. You know, we're not gonna probably give our 18 month old frosting, we may give them a piece of cake, you know, a couple times a year, right? [00:27:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:27:36] Speaker B: Now what happens when they're eating cake? It's not that that one piece of cake is so bad for them, it's that that one piece of cake is filling them up on something and they're not getting something else. Right. So then they're not eating the raspberries and they're not eating, you know, the, the carrots and they're not eating, you know, whatever the protein and the, whatever they're having for dinner. It's the same thing with screens. So it's not that this one time they watch a screen, it's so damaging, it's what is the brain missing out on. And so that's kind of the fundamental way that I look at screens in the early years. Because parents are always like, well, this educational and it's this and my child's learning that and my child's learning that. And first of all, you know, we know that in the first three years there's nothing that a child can learn from a screen. Because the first three years are about the social emotional self. It's the social emotional brain. And so if they are learning something, you know, there are, you know, course apps and things that are, you know, teaching them numbers or colors or whatever it is. If they are learning those things, first of all, that would be three plus that the brain would even need to know any of that. But if they're learning that earlier, you're actually taking away from synaptic connections that could form in those, those early years, you're taking a connection away. And so that's kind of how I like to think of screens in the early years is it's not what it's doing, it's what, what the child is not doing. [00:29:04] Speaker C: The opportunity cost. [00:29:05] Speaker B: The opportunity cost. Exactly. So whatever amount of time they're spending on a scream is an amount of time that their brain is not figuring something out. Their brain is not exploring, their brain is not discovering, and their brain is not connecting to somebody else. And so that's the biggest risk. [00:29:23] Speaker C: Yes. So for parents, I mean, it is hard sometimes, and not every family is the same, to not provide a screen. Right. Like you have a meeting, you have, you have to cook dinner and whatever. Right. So I think what I hear from what you're saying is that it's also the cost of opportunity and the habit. Right. When it becomes a habit, then there is a major opportunity cost. [00:29:53] Speaker B: Yes, right, exactly. [00:29:54] Speaker C: That's. [00:29:54] Speaker B: So if you, you know, if you have something, you know, that comes up and you, you know, your, your nanny is sick and your husband is traveling and you put, you know, you put your child in front of a screen so you can do an hour meeting, is that going to cause any permanent, you know, difference to their brain? Absolutely not. Right. But again, it's that, well, what is, what is going to shift? Is it an hour every day? Is it, you know, is it an hour a week? Is it, you know, so, and, and obviously, you know, probably an hour a week wouldn't shift that. Right. But I have a story about that. So when my daughter was three, so first of all, you know, my, my son, you know, we had zero screens for him until he was five. Right. And, but I have three children, so I'm a little hum, more humble now. And every child, the screen time went a little lower and a little lower. Right. And it's hard with siblings because they're watching the things. You have older siblings, they're, you know, it's just a, it became a part of your life. Whereas, you know, if you have one child and you can just not ever introduce it, it is so much easier. [00:31:02] Speaker C: 100 agree. And yes, I'm on that boat too. [00:31:05] Speaker B: Yeah. But once you, once it's apart, then it becomes harder. So anyway, my daughter was three and she had just given up her nap. And I was not ready to lose, you know, that time that I needed in the afternoon for myself or, you know, to work or whatever it was that I had already, you know, I wasn't ready for that. So I decided that, you know, and it was actually only one day a week that she wasn't at preschool in the afternoon. And so I, I would keep her home on Fridays. And so I decided that, you know, once a week she would watch something, you know, and, and I loved Daniel Tiger. It's a great show. A lot of social, emotional learning there that a child above 3 can, can learn from. Right. So anyway, so I, I decided that she would, during that nap time on Fridays, she would watch, you know, a couple episodes of Daniel T. What I saw happen was that she began asking for screens in other parts of the day. Her brain somehow started thinking that it needed to be entertained and she stopped trusting her ability to create her own fun, essentially, even though it was only once a week. I saw such a shift in the way that she played. And all of a sudden, anytime there was a lull in the day, anytime there was like, you know, that moment where they're engaged with something and then they're kind of finished. Can I watch something? Can I? My son never, ever asked to watch anything. And so it was a big enough deal that I decided after I started seeing that, I decided, no, we're not going to do it anymore. And at that point in our family routine, and my son was older, we had like a Friday night movie ritual. So that was usually the only screens that they would get was like a Friday night movie as a family. Sometimes it was just a few episodes of something, but. But just like a time to connect. And that I found didn't like, sort of infiltrate into their creative thinking and creative play. It was like something that was so ritualized. Right. It was something that was consistent and it was at this time and it was in the evening. It wasn't something that we did when we were bored. And that is something I 100% recommend to parents. And if you're doing a screen when you're bored, that is a slippery slope. [00:33:30] Speaker C: Yeah, I 100% agree. I actually have an episode on just boredom. [00:33:34] Speaker B: Okay, good. [00:33:36] Speaker C: Boredom is so good and so frustrating. Right. So can you speak a little bit more about boredom? [00:33:42] Speaker B: I think yes. I have a lot of quotes I tell my children, and sometimes, you know, boredom is the mother of all invention. Boredom is when, you know, when you're bored, is when creativity begins. You know, a lot of other annoying things they don't want to hear when they're bored. But I think I really believe that when we get in the habit of the instantaneous entertainment, then we really stop being able to create an inner world for ourselves and a way to. To think of new ideas. And we know that, you know, when that is the catalyst for creativity is when we don't have something structured and, you know, another, you know, slightly related, you know, maybe not as related to technology, but like the overstructuring of childhood, you know, in a similar way where children are being, you know, from, you know, soccer to music lessons to ballet class to this to that, to that. And they're not having time to just play. It is actually changing their development. [00:34:57] Speaker C: They. They need to learn to be bored. Just absolutely solving. [00:35:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:01] Speaker C: Frustration and all of that. And we adults too, like, when I'm in a red light, I'm in the car. I cannot stand that boredom moment. It's one minute of red light. [00:35:13] Speaker A: What I do, I get grab my phone. [00:35:15] Speaker B: Isn't that interesting? [00:35:16] Speaker C: Yes. [00:35:17] Speaker B: How we're so wired for that now. Right. And even probably ourselves, you know, 15, 20 years ago wouldn't have. I mean, I find like yeah, just like also like when you're in line or, or I always find, like when you're at. When you're at a restaurant and the person gets up to go use the bathroom, you know, so hard I try to challenge myself on those moments. Like, what else could I do? What else could I wonder, what else could I notice about, you know, the people around me or, you know, all of those things. [00:35:46] Speaker C: Yes. To develop the boredom muscle, which it's not a muscle, but definitely it's something to work on. [00:35:52] Speaker B: And they say that like, you know, going back to this, you know, what. What are children losing when we're on our phone? It's like they say that a phone is like 20 other people in the room, but it's not. You know, we know that children in traditional societies had a 1 to 13 ratio of adults to children. So they had 13 people interacting with them, noticing them, connecting with them, the modern nuclear family, it looks a lot different than that. So there's already. And there's already a ton of research on just that. Like there, our children are already living in an attention deficit world. Right. Where there used to be connection rich world, we are now living in a connection deficit. [00:36:38] Speaker C: Interesting. Actually, one of my next questions was regarding attention. Like, are there particular developmental areas, especially attention, that are sensitive to tech use? Like you already mentioned speech development, social skills. But I think attention, I think I've read. [00:36:55] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, there are more and more and more studies coming out on this is the thing. And again, this is experimental generation, right? We are. And you know, Jonathan Haidt, in his book the Anxious Generation, published this book around how children that were coming of age at the invention of the iPhone, right around 2010, their mental health has plummeted. So, you know, we are just. The research is still coming out on all of this, but what we do know is we know how the brain develops and we know that the window from 0 to 5 is the foundation of the brain. So I already talked about 0 to 3 being that social emotional foundation. And we know that 3 to 5 is another huge jump in the way the cerebral brain is set up. So even from three to five, if we know that children are. Again, the thing with technology and screens is that it is moving so quickly and it isn't giving children a chance to even sometimes be frustrated. I mean, you take a simple thing like a math game versus a math puzzle. Okay? [00:38:05] Speaker C: So. [00:38:07] Speaker B: When a child is doing a game, a math game, right? And, and even our school, you know, that's our homework is to do These. [00:38:16] Speaker C: Math games on the iPad or on. [00:38:17] Speaker B: The tablet, we just use our. Our laptop for it. But, yeah, it can be on anything. What I find is that there's no frustration tolerance being built up, because if he doesn't know how to do it, he just keeps tapping until he finds the answer. [00:38:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:35] Speaker B: So he's actually not even getting frustrated about not knowing it. Meanwhile, I'm in the kitchen making dinner. I have no idea that he doesn't know how to do this problem because he's just tapping at a screen. So parents, sometimes they think, even for younger children, oh, it's a math game, you know, but you actually don't know if your child is learning or if they are just randomly guessing and pushing buttons. And now if your child was doing a, let's say, a math puzzle, right. And they had to, you know, try to figure out, you know, the three balloons, and they had to match it to the number three. You will hear them when they can't do that, because there's no way to get those puzzle pieces to fit together. If they don't, they have to be. [00:39:16] Speaker C: Actively thinking, not they cannot guess. [00:39:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you could, right? But it would take trying and trying and active and thinking, and probably at that point, you're, you know, the child is. I can't. I can't figure it out. And then when we are there to support and say, oh, do we need to take a break? Do you need to take a deep breath? Hmm. I wonder if you tried counting, you know, first and then try to find the number or something. So that again, already it's more interactive. You already know a lot more about your child. But the frustration tolerance is something that is really being researched and its connection to attention. If children, they're getting so many distractions that, you know, reading is. Is declining because reading takes focus. And so many teachers are reporting that children are not able to read, you know, 20 pages in, you know, fifth grade or whatever. So anyway, so, yes, there was so much around attention, because what we know about the brain is that it's a use it or lose it model. So if the. The part of the brain that is learning to focus isn't used, those. Those things will be pruned. [00:40:32] Speaker C: Interesting. [00:40:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, we have to practice the things that we want our brains to preserve and save and experiment for us. You know, the brain is a muscle, essentially, and we're not practicing that kind of focus. So it's absolutely impacting. But the other big impact, I would say, is with anxiety. And, you know, this goes Back to play. And I think this is something really important to talk about to parents, you know, and in the book the Anxious Generation, he's looking at, you know, why the anxiety rates are skyrocketing. And when we think about this in terms of young children, we know that play involves risk taking. And I can't tell you how many parents, parents, you know, I have adolescent age children now and I've heard so many parents say things like, well, my kid's not going out on Friday night or whatever, but at least they're home and they're safe. And the thing is a, you do not know that they're safe when they're home online. [00:41:29] Speaker C: Number one, they're safe on the physical world. Right. Maybe not on the. [00:41:33] Speaker B: Maybe, I mean, depending on, you know, all kinds of, you know, predators. But, but the thing is, and on cyberbullying, you know, that obviously is going to affect their physical safety as well. But the other main thing is that when children are not out in the world taking risks, they're not building what we call the arc of being able to manage and cope with feelings. And when we think about this for young children, so when a young children plays, we know that there are certain elements to their play that they're always seeking. Okay. And they often involve this level of risk. So if you think about it, it really makes sense. They're looking for speed, they're looking for height. Right. They're looking for hiding. [00:42:24] Speaker C: Yes. [00:42:25] Speaker B: And covering. They are. There's a couple more dangerous tools or dangerous elements. [00:42:30] Speaker C: Yes. 100% right. Yes. [00:42:33] Speaker B: And then rough and tumble. So these are all things that we know, and this is based on, on the research by Ellen Sandsetter. And we know that children are doing this risky kind of play. And if you think about when a child is behind the screen, there is no great height, there's no rapid speed, there's no danger, there's no real danger for the child. Their character could be in danger, but it doesn't actually trigger the parts of the brain that are learning to manage risk. It's all play and it's all fun and there's obviously no rough and tumble, there's no physical element and there's no, you know, hiding, disappearing, getting lost. And in all of those six elements of risky play a child actually experiences when they get to the very top of that height of the playground structure and they look down or right as they're going up, there's a moment where they're a little afraid and then they push themselves and they get past it or they're speeding on their, their tricycle or bike or scooter and they're get faster than they thought they would be. And there's a moment of panic. Right. And it may end with some scratched knees. Right. It may end with, you know, a bump. But the thing is, is they got through it and they've learned a really important thing is that when I am nervous, when I'm scared, when I'm anxious about something, I can do it. And so when we're taking children away from these very basic elements at play, we are taking away their capacity to deal with, with anxiety and stress and, you know, not to mention disappointment. And that, to me, from a mental health perspective, is one of the biggest risks. [00:44:16] Speaker C: Yeah, 100%. Yes. We were afraid of them being hurt in the physical world, but that's actually part of development. Right? [00:44:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And he, and I think that's one of the best lines in his book is that, you know, from the anxious generations, we're over protecting children in the physical world and we're under protecting them on the, in the online world. And it's absolutely true. You know, of course, you know, if we could wrap our children up in a bubble and keep them safe and make sure that nothing ever happened to them, there's a part of us, all of us as parents, that wants to do that. And we know that at the end of the day, that child would be very ill prepared for life. [00:44:58] Speaker C: Yes. As a parent, like seeing your kid on top of that structure, you know, creates anxiety. We have to manage anxiety too. Right. And fear for them falling. But then we. Yeah. Our job is to be there when they fall and have a scratched knee and to be there when the risk is too high. Right. So we, we have to also balance the riskness. We have to let them take risks, but also not being unconscious of what the risk they're taking. Right. [00:45:29] Speaker B: We have to. Yeah. And we do, you know, we want to share with our children and talk to them about all of those things. Right. And. But I really. You, I think. How much supervision did you have as a child? Yeah, sometimes we are now supervising our children so much that we're actually seeing more and it's causing us more anxiety. You know, a lot of the things that our children did are doing. We did the same things, but nobody was watching to get afraid. [00:45:59] Speaker C: Nobody was watching. That is correct. [00:46:02] Speaker B: And it's so important for their development. They don't. That they, they have those moments where they do the arc where they, they're a little bit Afraid, and I'm a little bit afraid, and then I do it, and then it's thrilling. And then I get to the other side, and I realize that when I have that moment of anxiety, if I keep going, I'll be okay. And to me, that's one of the fundamental things that children are missing out on when they're not playing in the real world. [00:46:31] Speaker C: So we've learned a lot about how the brain is formed, the different stages. So let's dive into practical strategies. So what can we do as parents? Right. So what does a healthy digital environment look like in a home with infants or toddlers? Let's start there. [00:46:51] Speaker B: I mean, again, I would say for infants and toddlers, you know, ideally, we're gonna have zero because we know they're in that window. My recommendation would be, you know, limiting as much as possible until the age of three. If you are introducing earlier than that. My num. And even. Even after that, my number one recommendation is that it's on a schedule, that screens are not on demand. Once it becomes on demand, once it becomes the lull in the moment, the time when I need to make dinner or your dad's not home, and here's the screen, and it's out of the ordinary, and it becomes something that can happen kind of anytime. That's when we see children losing their ability to be creative, to be imaginative. And if you can get through those hard moments, and I can, I can definitely give you a few ideas of things to put out for your children while you're making dinner, while you're, you know, if you do have those moments. But I would say, yeah, for those first three years, my recommendation would be it's very little as possible, emergency situations, you know, can you get through a plane ride without it? Yes, I think you have. [00:48:05] Speaker C: I have, yes. With my oldest. Because then there's a sibling. Right. The situation. But yes, with my oldest, who flew back to Spain many times until she was, I think, four, three or four, she did not have screens on the plane, which requires a lot of work from parents. Right. So you need to be on that mindset. So not everybody's on that mindset. Then her sister, of course, had screens or movies in the plane way before 4. [00:48:37] Speaker B: Yes, I know. Us too. Us too. And we had similar, you know, trips to Australia. And I mean, I used to plan more for the plane rides than I did for the trip, you know, and just like, you know, thinking of all the different activities and, you know, and I was in that headspace. Now, if I was going to, you know, my grandmother's funeral or, you know, something, maybe I wasn't in that headspace. And another question to ask before you give a child a screen is, have I tried everything else? Have I exhausted the possibilities? Because if it becomes a habit to just give that screen without thinking about, well, what are they missing out on? What, what development are they missing out on? What? Imagination, creativity, sense of self, frustration, tolerance, anxiety management. Like, if we can keep all of that in our heads and say, you know, what are we missing out on? So if now I've thought about all that and I said, yes, they're missing all that on, but I need this hour and I have this really important meeting, then hundred percent, like there are those moments as parents, and I don't think we should beat ourselves up or feel super guilty about those moments. But I think if we're doing this work of trying not to make that the automatic, trying to make screens, you know, on a schedule even until maybe forever, that they, they know that, you know, on, of course, after Friday nights, we added Saturday mornings. They could do screens Friday night, Saturday morning, right? So they know that there's. We still don't do screens on the weekdays, but I know families that do. And it's like, I really recommend, if you're going to do screens on the weekdays, it's, you know, always, you know, after come in from, you know, the park and it's always from, you know, 5, 30 to 6 and that's it. And another, another really important, just like small tool that I give parents is like, you know, the half hour thing is not going to work because no shows are half hour, right? So what I would recommend is telling your child, you, you can always, you can watch one show or if it needs to be two shows, whatever it is, but look on their device and see when the show starts. And you can tell, right? If you screen, It'll tell you 22 minutes, minutes and 30 seconds. Then set an alarm on your phone for 21 minutes and 30 seconds and you spend that last minute just watching. And that's, that's actually nice because if you watch the last minute of the show, then after you turn it off, you can ask them questions, you can connect with them about it. But even if it's just, you know, even if it's just that one minute, you're there for that transition. Because we know that all of these shows, it's not like TV when we were kids, kids, right? And the TV show would go off and then there's all these commercials and the child loses interest, and that's a great time for mom to pull you to the dinner table. That's not happening anymore. It's auto, you know, and. And sometimes the kids know how to skip intro. So we're not even hearing that a new show started. Yes, right. [00:51:34] Speaker C: And that's why it's important to communicate about the importance of, you know, trust and why. Why screen. Why is it 30 minutes? Why. Why not an hour? Right. Having the conversation, not just the rule. Because I'm mom and I say so. [00:51:51] Speaker B: Well, yeah. And even just explaining to them, you know, this is like candy. And we don't have candy for breakfast and lunch and dinner, and we don't have candy all day. Right. This is just a treat. And you're gonna have this treat. Like I said, whatever you figure out works for your family. But my biggest recommendation as far as good digital habits is that it's on a schedule, it's not on demand, and it doesn't become something that. And ask for. And also, you know, another big recommendation, I see this more and more. Again, no iPhones when my oldest was going through this toddler years. But one thing I see more and more is when a child is upset or tantruming. And that's really worrisome to me as a. As an educator, because again, a child needs to know that if I didn't get the cookies, if I didn't get the yogurt, whatever it was, and I'm upset and I'm sad, and if I am, then have this instant gratification and distraction. You know, we think about when a child gets older and they're feeling sad about something, they're feeling disappointed about something, do they need to go to an instant distraction? Now it's a screen. What could the distractions be as they get older into the teenage years? You know, drugs, alcohol, validation from others, like, all of those things, even. [00:53:08] Speaker C: Even screens, like being able to manage oneself. It's kind of a key developmental skill, right? [00:53:14] Speaker B: Yes. So. So that's just something to. To really, I think, pay attention to as far as literacy habits. [00:53:21] Speaker C: You mentioned creating schedules, but there's also probably some schedules that are better for child development than others. So, you know, eating with a iPad and. Yeah. Can you speak to that? [00:53:34] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's. So that's one recommendation would be not. Not, you know, really resisting that urge to give a child a device when they're upset to. For consolation, because they really need to be able to go through that arc where they say, oh, gosh, I was upset. But Guess what? I made it through. And that is going to be with them for the rest of their lives. The ability to manage that emotion and go through that. So that's a really important thing. And then screens. Yeah. When we're eating is another really important thing. And what we know from lots and lots of studies of obesity, eating disorders is that when a child loses touch with their hunger cues, this is what leads to a lot of these eating problems later on. So when a child is eating and they don't want to sit at the table, they don't want to, you know, they don't want to. And then we put a screen and we. And I have a lot of parents say it works great. It works like a charm. They sit there and. And I can just shovel food in their mouth. [00:54:35] Speaker C: Okay. [00:54:36] Speaker B: When we think about that, right. What we're doing is we're telling a child that not to listen to their body, to use food almost as, you know, something they're not thinking about, they're not conscious about. And so, yeah, that's, you know, there's that. And that's been going on. Those studies are really old because we had the TV for a very long time. And so that was a recommendation, you know, way back in, like the 80s was the link between watching TV and. Or obesity and. Or eating disorders. So it can go both ways. [00:55:12] Speaker C: If. If we already have that habit about, on, you know, like eating with the screens or any other habit that after listening to this podcast, we want to change. [00:55:23] Speaker A: Can we change it? [00:55:25] Speaker C: Is it too late? How do we do it? [00:55:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, Great, Great question. No, absolutely not too late. Will it be hard to change? Yes. I recommend giving yourself about two weeks. And I actually have in a lot of our classes, I recommend whenever we're making a shift in parenting, to give yourself two weeks, whether it's. You're setting a new limit, you're setting a new expectation. Give yourself about two weeks until you see that your child is able to accept that limit, accept that new change to the rule. So if you know that it's probably going to be two weeks of resistance, of maybe the tantrums will be longer and louder. Um, and you'll have to, you know. But. But yeah, but I would say, I mean, it's. It's different with a child under three versus over three, so maybe we can separate that a little bit. When you're, when you're making a change, when you're making a change with a toddler under three, then you know, you won't be able to do Much as far as like telling them ahead of time and prepping them and kind of explaining. But it for that the child under three, it's going to be more of a mindset that you have that o, okay, things are going to get worse before they're going to get better and being very proactive to replace those with other activities and other things. So if it's, you know, the child was tantruming and we were in the habit of giving them a device, you may try and you can, you know, you're welcome to, to take one of our classes on toddler tantrums that we have available on our website, earlychildhoodmatters.org but, you know, basically just you want to have a new tool. So the tool there would be acknowledging the feeling, saying to the child, oh, it looks like you're so mad. It looks like you're so mad and you really wanted mama's phone. And I see your, your, you know, your cheeks are hot and you know, your, your eyebrows are scrunched and just kind of describe what you're seeing. And you can even tell your child, you know, can you say I'm mad and even give them a sign if they're preverbal? So you want to have, you know, another to replace. Obviously, if you were giving them a screen in that moment or if it was more of the meal time and you were giving them a screen during the meal, again, if they're over three, you would want to have this conversation ahead of time and talk to them about, well, what are your ideas? You know, I was reading this book, I was listening to this podcast and I found out it's actually not really great for you as you get older and as you grow and develop. And we really want you to be able to, to know and trust what's going into your body and to, to be connected to, to that. So we want to change, but we are, we're, we're interested in hearing from you. You know, what do you think could help at the, you know, and you really don't want to have like, toys, like all those kinds of other distractions either. But again, I mean, this is, you know, that's probably a whole nother class. [00:58:27] Speaker C: Yes. [00:58:28] Speaker B: On like. But, but if you are making the change, give yourself time and have some, some other things that you're replacing. You know, my, my, my top tips for, for meal times are, you know, replacing with questions where you go around as a family and talk about, you know, we would do blackberries and brambles or we would talk about with young toddler, just talk about the zoo, talk about the weather, talk about name all their friends in the class, look for everything red in the room, you know, something that you're engaging them with and having a conversation is okay. Lots of studies on that. That is not, not, you know, the same level of distraction that a screen would provide. So yeah, absolutely, you're going to be engaging them, but we don't want them completely checked out during that moment. [00:59:17] Speaker C: So what are your top three non screen solutions or alternatives to screens? While you need to have your children entertained, while having dinner, while you're cooking or whatever and your partner is not there. [00:59:31] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So I, in these cases I was very thankful that I was a preschool teacher before I was a parent. And at every preschool I ever worked at we didn't have a computer or screen in the classroom. I know some of them do now but, but I never worked in one that did. Most of them still don't anyhow. Because of that I learned that children can absolutely entertain themselves for long amounts of time. And I think, you know, obviously when they have a friend it's different. But without a friend, the thing that I found the most engaging for a child would be some kind of sensory or water play activity. And so for me as a parent, those were always my go tos. And I would ask my child, do you want to help mommy cook or do you want to do some play Doh, for example? Do you want to. And and so I would say my top three are Play Doh. Homemade Play Doh I find is way better than store bought play doh. They will play with it longer, it's more engaging and softer. You can also find our recipes there on our website. We can link in the show notes too. But the other thing I would say is like one of my favorites honestly was I would get an ice cube tray, dump out the ice, sprinkle it with baking soda and then give the child a little cup of vinegar. For toddlers you want to just give them a teaspoon and have them pour into each, each ice cube. You can get about three reactions and then they keep going. That's 3, 6, 9, 12. Right? Right. Yeah, it's a while you can get dinner mate. You can also like save your little, you know, the baby medicine droppers because those are great if when they're three and up they can squeeze, get the vinegar and then let it out and it's, you know, that's super fun. So that was something I knew I could always have in my back pocket. And then otherwise, just giving a child a little, you know, get like a lasagna pan, a few cups, and just give them an opportunity to play with water and just water. And, you know, you can put some colors in it if you want, but just, you know, water play will entertain a child, I promise you, as long as an episode. [01:02:02] Speaker C: That's a great tip. And also, we need to assume as parents that it will get a bit messy, but cleaning up the water with coloring, it's just a wash. Right. So it's not a big deal. Right? Yeah. [01:02:15] Speaker B: In our toddler class, you know, we. We spend one of the sessions on sensory and art activities and alternatives to screens. So most of them are easy cleanup. Because I think it is really important for parents. I know some parents, you have less mess tolerance. I have a pretty high mess tolerance as a preschool teacher, but. But what? I always encourage parents time. The amount of time your child played with the activity versus the amount of time it probably will take minutes to clean up. And the ones I just gave you are very easy to clean up. [01:02:49] Speaker C: Yeah. I also used the rice one. You know, like you put rice in a bucket. [01:02:53] Speaker B: Exactly. [01:02:54] Speaker C: That's messier. [01:02:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Depending on the age, that can be. Black beans can be better. A little easier to clean up. Corn, starch, and water. You know, there's a lot of different. You can look up, like, sensory play ideas, but it's. To me, those were my lifesavers. That's what I did. If I had a meeting, if I had something I needed to do, I knew my child would be sitting there. And even if they're in a high chair still, you can strap them in the high chair and put the sensory thing there. And then, you know, if you're worried about them getting up and down and da, da, da. And, you know, my kids were just so happy to be in that they didn't mind being in their high chair during that time. Yeah. [01:03:32] Speaker C: So we talked about these practical tips with the toddlers. So. But what if a parent feels overwhelmed? And what's the one small thing they can try this week to support their child's development? [01:03:48] Speaker B: That's my last thing, is to make parents feel overwhelmed or guilty. Because, honestly, parenting is so hard, and I have never done anything harder in my entire life. And, you know, obviously nothing brings you more joy, but it is. And it is very difficult to be a parent. And so we need to support each other, not judge each other. I think sometimes, you know, when you look on social media, it's like, you know, there. There can be that judgment or shame. And I don't want anyone to leave this conversation feeling like that. Hope, and I know your hope with this podcast is that parents feel empowered to, to do that, to make some small changes that they, that they need to make. I would say one small thing you can do, you could try what I did, which was to, to just make a certain amount of your day where you put your phone somewhere else and you know, you, you dedicate that, you know, if you do, if you are with your children just in the evenings or after, you know that you dedicate a few hours where you're, you're not on your phone during those hours and you know that whatever it is, you're gonna get back to it after, after they're in bed. And then another, I would say another big thing is just the trying to get onto a schedule where the screen is, is on a schedule versus on demand. Those two things will make such a big difference. Where, you know, your screen time is, becomes a little bit more on a schedule. Right? And if you have, if you're home with your children all day and you have young children, and then I would say trying to create a habit of, you know, just letting them know, okay, Mommy's going to go and do some things I need you to play on your own. And doing your screen, you use kind of around the corner, not necessarily right there in front of them, that you develop independent play skills in the child so that you can take breaks and you can do the things that you may need to do on your phone. But as far as, you know, scrolling and all of those things, just making a commitment that, you know, those are things that you'll do later either when they're napping, when they're sleeping. So those would be my two biggest recommendations is create some kind of schedule for your own screen use in front of your children. Children. Because it is real. And you know, like we both experience when, you know, when your kids say to you, mommy, you're always on your phone when I ask you a question. It's heart wrenching. [01:06:16] Speaker C: Yes, it is. [01:06:17] Speaker B: You know, so, but it's also, you know, it's okay. It's, it's, it's the, it's the world that we're living in. But then instead of feeling guilty, okay, well, what can I do? What small change can I do to shift to show you that I am more present present that I am more available to you, that I have other interests and hobbies and things that I'm doing, but that I am, you know, Emotionally, I'm, I'm available to you when you need me. And so that's one thing. And then for their screen time, same thing on a schedule, create. Decide if you need to do it every day. And that's the way that your family works and operates. Decide what is that? Half hour? What is that, you know, hour? Probably at the most at this age. What is it? Do not change it. Have it be the same every day. [01:07:03] Speaker C: Yeah, that's, that's really helpful and not easy. Especially the. Our own phone schedule. Right. That is, it's hard, but definitely worth it. [01:07:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And even, like I said, just like a small shift might be, you start by choosing, you know, one hour of your day where you know that this is a high need day, a high need time for your child. And that's the hour that you're not going to be on your phone in front of them. And interestingly, I have heard parents say that if they have an Apple Watch, they actually use their phone less because then they're getting messages and, or any kind of smartwatch, I guess they're getting messages like texts and calls will come. And so then they know if, you know, if somebody does need me, I can, you know, but I do think like the constant, you know, checking and it's. Your children are noticing it. And by the way, you know, I have a teenager now who has his own phone. We waited until 9th grade to give him a phone, but he has a phone. And all the things that you're, you're modeling, they're going to do. Right. So, you know, if you're modeling that you don't just pick up your phone in the middle of a conversation. You know, that's one thing that's really been an important rule in our family is that if we're having a conversation and my phone being, I don't pick it up. Right. I'm gonna ignore that. And so, you know, it's been interesting to see my son. You know, it's, it's harder for him, but you can see that he actually, he gets that. Like, he gets that if he's talking to me and something, you know, he's not gonna immediately go for it. So everything that you do, you're building for your children, they're gonna be. If you're looking at your phone during dinner, what do you think your teenager is gonna do? Do? [01:08:47] Speaker C: Yeah. Yes. It's, it's a, it's an effort, but it's, it's worth it. So what, what brings you hope? What gives you hope when you work with young families today? [01:09:01] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's a great question. Honestly, I think that this, like your listeners out there that have toddlers, I think you're actually in a way better position than those, those parents that had toddlers in 2012 and 2015, you know, right as those devices were coming out. Because I think we do have a lot more information. And I see like, I mean, the parents that take my classes, when we talk about this, I see lots of parents saying, oh no, we don't do any screens before two, we don't do any screens before three, you know, so I think that there is a lot more awareness now. And I see that parents are doing things like listening to these podcasts. They're getting more information that kind of empowers them to make better decisions versus the first generation of parents with the devices where, you know, it was just kind of like, oh, wow, this is awesome. This will entertain you. This will do this, you know, so maybe I see hope for this next generation of parents that are being a little bit more thoughtful. We have so much research now on the attention, on the anxiety, on the creativity, on the self esteem, you know, all of these things. And so, so that, that brings me hope. And I see it, I see it in this, these parents that I work with. [01:10:22] Speaker C: Glad to hear that I share that hope with you. So we're meeting towards the end. So for parents eager to deepen about this knowledge and skills, what resources or workshop. [01:10:42] Speaker B: Yeah, so you can definitely check out our website. We'll link it in the show notes. But we have a lot of on demand classes as well as in person classes if you're here in San Francisco on all of these, you know, parenting through the toddler years, getting some more strategies, like I said, for mealtimes, for the tantrums, for, you know, these alternatives to screens so that you have, you know, more tools as you're transitioning or being more conscious or maybe as your child gets older. Older. So we have classes for parenting through the toddler through the preschool year and we have our nature Explorers group. If you're in San Francisco, I highly recommend. It's one of the best things that you can do to develop the, the inner world for your child and their appreciation of nature, their body consciousness, their body ability. So all of that would be wonderful. And then also offer first and second and third time moms groups here in the city. And we are actually launching a podcast. [01:11:45] Speaker C: Yes. [01:11:47] Speaker B: So that is super exciting. So you can go to early childhood matters.org to find out about our podcast where we're really helping parents to prepare for It's a, it's a Q and A type podcast with my my mentor of the last 20 years and I are working together to answer parents questions around building resiliency, independent play, confidence, all of that. So definitely check that out as well. [01:12:18] Speaker A: 100%. [01:12:19] Speaker C: So I hope everybody took note. Thank you for all the for being here and all the work you've been doing for so long on this topic that I'm now so passionate about. But like you've been teaching and raising awareness amongst parents for so long. So thank you. Thank you so much. [01:12:37] Speaker B: Thank you. And thank you again for doing this work as well. [01:12:45] Speaker A: And to our listeners, thank you so much for listening and being there. I hope this conversation gave you a better understanding on how powerful those early years really are and how much of a difference we can make just by being present and connected with our kids. And again, if you want to learn more from Rebecca, check out her program, Early Childhood Matters. She's offering Pixel Parenting listeners 10% off in any of her on demand parenting workshops or in person mom groups. Just use the code PixelParenting10. You'll find the link in the show notes along with info on her Explorers Nature program. And if you're looking for more parenting wisdom, be sure to listen to her podcast, Parenting Matters. And as always, thank you for being here and for parenting with curiosity, care and a little bit of calm. [01:13:32] Speaker C: See you next time.